Demons Run
Central Defender
This. Thoroughly enjoyable read this morning.Excellent thread lads keep it coming
The Nazis
- Thread starter Dave Herbal
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From what I've read and watched in the past, my understanding is that the Nazis still had a chance of winning (or at least prolonging to the point where peace terms would be struck) even after D-Day. The problem was the cult of Hitler and his obsession with genocide - even to the point where he would be diverting desperately needed fuel and resources from the front to instead support the killing factories.
The Forgotten Soldier is one of the most interesting WW2 books I've read. It is an account at the Eastern front from a German kid. One of the things that stood out when reading it (and it was a good few year ago now) was about their retreat - a tiny portion of the army would stay behind every few miles to slow down the Russian advance. Imagine being part of that group, just waiting for them to come knowing you're already dead.
The Forgotten Soldier is one of the most interesting WW2 books I've read. It is an account at the Eastern front from a German kid. One of the things that stood out when reading it (and it was a good few year ago now) was about their retreat - a tiny portion of the army would stay behind every few miles to slow down the Russian advance. Imagine being part of that group, just waiting for them to come knowing you're already dead.
RJs shoes
Midfield
Like Hitler, Stalin saw himself as a great military strategist.
(There's that famous scene in the film Downfall that's been done to death with parodies on YouTube, where Hitler is moving armies around that don't exist anymore)
It was only when Stalin handed matters over to competent generals such as Zhukov and Konev the Russians started winning.
Even then he would pit his commanders against one another, for example as to who would be the one to take Berlin.
There's some fascinating stuff in Simon Sebag Montefiore's book - Stalin. The Court of the Red Tsar.
Stalin couldn't or wouldn't believe that Hitler would break the peace treaty. He had a breakdown, ran off to his dacha and had to be persuaded back to lead the country.
Of course a lot of the lads who saw him in that state were liquidated later.
(There's that famous scene in the film Downfall that's been done to death with parodies on YouTube, where Hitler is moving armies around that don't exist anymore)
It was only when Stalin handed matters over to competent generals such as Zhukov and Konev the Russians started winning.
Even then he would pit his commanders against one another, for example as to who would be the one to take Berlin.
There's some fascinating stuff in Simon Sebag Montefiore's book - Stalin. The Court of the Red Tsar.
Stalin couldn't or wouldn't believe that Hitler would break the peace treaty. He had a breakdown, ran off to his dacha and had to be persuaded back to lead the country.
Of course a lot of the lads who saw him in that state were liquidated later.
The bombing of London was their undoing, had they continued to bomb the airfields instead they could have gained control of the skies.
Still caught totally on the hop, even after Stalin was told Hitler was about to attack he refused to believe it.
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Will be giving that a read, cheers.
Upthere
Winger
This. A truth handed down my family through the generations.
Burning crops that were left etc was so simple but so effective.
Massive shoutout to Alan Turing as well.
Deserves every ounce of recognition he receives.
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i have to disagree, the germans did'nt really have a clue where FC were - sure, they knew where the sector stations were and bombed them accordingly but all that meant was the squadrons dispersed to the satellite fields (which were just that, large open fields with a couple of nissen huts)
hell the germans bombed a coastal command airfield about 6 times during the battle - simply because it was an airfield...it did'nt have any FC planes on it
and the absolute worst thing (if the germans get everything right) is 11 Group pull out of range onto 10 & 12 group airfields - those airfields are safe, and FC can still easily contest Kent and the Channel (and also by pulling back theres less chance of fighters being bounced whilst climbing after a scramble)
pillars of hercules
Striker
Many factors involved but if Germany had pushed forward with their tanks during the Dunkirk evacuation, with the Luftwaffe focusing on keeping the RAF and RN at bay, most of our local experienced troops would have been captured. This would have a massive psychological effect on our moral. It still would have been very difficult for Germany to invade successfully, but if the Battle of Britain had gone the way it did I reckon Germany would have accepted an end to hostilities without surrender, seeing that they had no ambition to conquer us.
Barbarossa could still have been a success if Germany had simply paused and consolidated their position come winter and been more embracing of the Ukrainian people who would mostly have allied themselves with Germany.
Barbarossa could still have been a success if Germany had simply paused and consolidated their position come winter and been more embracing of the Ukrainian people who would mostly have allied themselves with Germany.
the halt order was given for a reason - the panzers were well past the end of their logistical train and were in desperate need of a few days to refit and repair (as they thought they would be needed for the final push through France). Hence the luftwaffe got the job (and also because fat Hermann desired it)
a better what if would have been what if the RN had tried, took a real pasting and gave up on the evac..
and while embracing the Ukrainians (and the Belorussians, and the Baltics) seems like a good idea....who's going to feed them all? The Germans were struggling with the logistics of supplying their own troops. How do you persuade these peoples to join you in the grand crusade against Bolshevism if you're robbing them of their food to feed your armies??
The French defence during the evacuation of Dunkirk isn't given enough credit.
Dave Herbal
Striker
The Nazi chance of winning disappeared the day the yanks joined in.
they sure did - destroyers for bases and the Lend Lease Act meant the nazis were'nt going to win.. - oh wait, you mean 7/12/41 dont you
skullmeister
Striker
But they did win in the end.
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Jokes aside, generals got together post-war to work out what would have happened if Operation Sea Lion was attempted.
I think an assumption was Royal Navy ships were out of position at the beginning of the operation so that the German first wave got ashore.
It was reckoned with the Royal Navy reaching the English Channel to sever supply lines, the Germans would have barely got past London before being stopped and pushed back.
Although the Royal Navy would have taken a hiding from aerial bombardment, the damage to supply lines leaving the Germans low on ammunition, etc. would have led to an evacuation, with continued damage seeing only a small proportion making it back to France.
I don't remember other factors thrown in such as guerrilla action on German troops say in the London area and the damage that might also have inflicted.
The result would have probably seen the Germans not be able to fight on with a much easier move into Europe when the Americans enter the war.
Basically, Operation Sea lion was never feasible and German landing barges were never really up to the job.
A pre-warned Royal Navy might have prevented any significant force from landing, though this last comment is my guess rather than any part of the simulation.
Pretty sure that Churchill had authorised the use of gas attacks on any German troops that landed.
pillars of hercules
Striker
Like any military campaign, feeding the troops takes priority. Tbf the Ukraine managed correctly could have produced enough food to feed the entire German military and the local population. The fact that the Ukrainians were Slavs led to harsh treatment, but Germany proved during the war that this was a political decision and could change their perception group to group. The Sorbs were treated as ethnic Germans, Croats and Slovenes treated better than Serbs and blonde Polish children brought into the Aryan fold.
While you're right about tanks needing resources and servicing, it was Goering's vanity that stopped the Panzers from completing the job. At that time tactical surrender was still a valid option as most troops would have been expected to return home quite quickly after a surrender.
I imagine it is in France. Each country writes history focussed on themselves. Its probably the same reason why Indian troops haven't been given enough credit.
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Yankee Mackem
Striker
Consider this, Britain's military strategy was based around dominance in sea power and the development of its army, through its colonies, over time. Naval superiority allowing the strength of Britain's army and its industrial infrastrycyure to be devetoed whilst the blockade made its opponents weaker. Germany depended on a rapid victory and did not/could achieve this against Britain due to her isolation from the continent.
Given that Britain's strategy was the long game, this was achieved. We could debate whether we could have really reversed the situation in france ourselves, But given that the u.s got the bomb in 45 it does make any debate invalid.
Given that Britain's strategy was the long game, this was achieved. We could debate whether we could have really reversed the situation in france ourselves, But given that the u.s got the bomb in 45 it does make any debate invalid.
Qwerty
Striker
This, the French rearguard action made it possible for British troops to retreat. Doubled up with French civilians jsmming roads and slowimg down the German advance. Yet some on here call them surrender monkeys. When people post this I laugh and wonder why they post when they have so little knowledge of WW2.
Invictus
Winger
There are lots of twists and turns that could of changed thing to a degree but eventually the Germans would still likely to have lost as raw resources available to the Allies was far superior and would probably still have tipped the balance in the end.
Anyone interested in how resources effect wars have a look at a series called Bullets, Boots and Bandages.
It’s a 3 part series currently on BBC4.
It’s probably on I player.
There was also the 51st Highland Division who were left behind after Dunkirk to help the French.
Anyone interested in how resources effect wars have a look at a series called Bullets, Boots and Bandages.
It’s a 3 part series currently on BBC4.
It’s probably on I player.
There was also the 51st Highland Division who were left behind after Dunkirk to help the French.
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D
Deleted member 559
Guest
So much history that isn't taught. Is a disgrace really.
Conyers falchion
Goalkeeper
Don’t forget Captain Annand of the DLI, first recipient of the VC in WW2. My dad did some joinery work for him in the ‘seventies and I, just a boy then, was introduced to him and shook his hand. Even then he emanated grace and courage. I was in awe. You could go and find out all about him in the DLI Museum in the city of Durham, heart of great County Durham...oh bugger.
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