The Catholic church

[The Great Soprendo]

Like what?

Well, just one small example:

On my way into work this morning, I was reading a book about people in Tuscany who helped rescue Jews in 1943-44 when the SS and local fascists were doing their best to round them up and send them to their death. A huge proportion of the people who hid Jews, organised false papers for them, arranged transport to safe havens etc etc at great risk to their own lives, were members of the clergy (priests, nuns, even the cardinal of Florence, who organised an elaborate rescue network saving hundreds of lives).

 

[Some Random Guy]

So do you think all these paedos just become priests to get access to kids? It seems massively widespread in the catholic church. Or maybe because it's such a large organisation it just seems that way.

I wonder what percentage of priests have turned out to be paedos compared to football coaches for example?

It could be that a lot aren't paedos to start with and abstinence sends them down that path.

 

[JonMc]

It could be that a lot aren't paedos to start with and abstinence sends them down that path.

Is every 40yr old virgin more likely to abuse children than someone who isn't? How long do you have to go without sex before you start looking enviously at children? Six months...six years?

Nah.

 

[WHD]

It could be that a lot aren't paedos to start with and abstinence sends them down that path.

I'm not convinced.

Well, just one small example:

On my way into work this morning, I was reading a book about people in Tuscany who helped rescue Jews in 1943-44 when the SS and local fascists were doing their best to round them up and send them to their death. A huge proportion of the people who hid Jews, organised false papers for them, arranged transport to safe havens etc etc at great risk to their own lives, were members of the clergy (priests, nuns, even the cardinal of Florence, who organised an elaborate rescue network saving hundreds of lives).

I suppose they had to do something to make up for the persecution of jews over the centuries in Europe.

 

[HerdnMulhall]

Like what?


I don't think being celibate would turn someone into a paedo, but it's "good" cover for a paedo not to have a relationship with an adult without any awkward questions.

Part of normal development I'd suggest is the crushes and dawning sexual attraction between teenagers.´That´s age appropriate stuff.
If, as a student priest, that has had to be stifled because of celibate lifestyle when, how, does it get expressed when inevitably sexual need comes a -knocking?
And it is not only the sexual expression it is the emotional expression that gets blighted.
It strikes me that a healthy adult chooses another healthy adult because all the stages of sexual development have been gone through. I suspect that paedophiles are stuck in a very primitive stage of sexual and emotional development where that hasn´t occured.
What scandalises me is the Church has spent decades- if not longer with this issue- and has done virtually jack shit about it. The Church above should have realised that ¨That which you suppress inevitably returns to destroy you.
I don´t think it will change much until the Church allows sexual expression, i.e. marriage, for those called to celibate service. But the Church is now surely a broken institution because of the wide ranging scandals from one country to the other. And deservedly

 

[Some Random Guy]

Is every 40yr old virgin more likely to abuse children than someone who isn't? How long do you have to go without sex before you start looking enviously at children? Six months...six years?

Nah.

Nah, I think there's something to it.

Prisons are full of straight men that buck other blokes.

There are a proportion of people that if deprived of sexual contact for long enough would buck a goat.

Unfortunately young boys are probably the most easily accessible opportunity for many of these people.

I'm not suggesting that every person that abstains becomes a paedo. That would be as simplistic as suggesting paedo priests joined the clergy for access to young boys.

I'm not convinced.

I'm certainly not sitting with a load of psychological studies to back my theory up. I just think it's a possibility in some cases.

Edit: .Bit of a search shows that abstinence is considered a contributing factor.

 

[thehighground]

If you look at the system of how people joined the religious in Ireland, it will go a long way to explaining why there are so many problems with religious. Up to about 50 years ago, the aim of every catholic Irish mother was to have a son a priest and a daughter a nun, so from a young age, kids they were sent on this path which included kids as young as 12 or 13 going way to special schools/seminaries to train for a religious life. Many would also have seen it as a way of getting a free education. You'd be surprised how many of a certain age group trained to be priests and left before being ordained. The catholic church did end up with a lot of people who should never have been priests in the first place but were so respected and trusted, they could do what they liked.

 

[JonMc]

Edit: .Bit of a search shows that abstinence is considered a contributing factor.

I'd be surprised. On the child abuse awareness courses I've attended they give you reams of psychology studies (Jenkins, Berlin, Carnes etc) who all argue paedos are as likely to be married heterosexuals than anything else. Those courses teach that the stats show men with the sexual attraction to young children will be more like to seek jobs or pastimes that give them access to and power over children as well as protection from being discovered.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

Part of normal development I'd suggest is the crushes and dawning sexual attraction between teenagers.´That´s age appropriate stuff.
If, as a student priest, that has had to be stifled because of celibate lifestyle when, how, does it get expressed when inevitably sexual need comes a -knocking?
And it is not only the sexual expression it is the emotional expression that gets blighted.
It strikes me that a healthy adult chooses another healthy adult because all the stages of sexual development have been gone through. I suspect that paedophiles are stuck in a very primitive stage of sexual and emotional development where that hasn´t occured.
What scandalises me is the Church has spent decades- if not longer with this issue- and has done virtually jack shit about it. The Church above should have realised that ¨That which you suppress inevitably returns to destroy you.
I don´t think it will change much until the Church allows sexual expression, i.e. marriage, for those called to celibate service. But the Church is now surely a broken institution because of the wide ranging scandals from one country to the other. And deservedly

Good post.

I'm not sure about percentages regarding paedophiles in the Church compared to say football. The Church is undergoing a period of investigation and exposure at the moment whereas the extent of paedophiles globally involved in football is not. Personally I think many paedophiles will be attracted to pursuits where children are the main participants. If that is the case then more paedophiles will be attracted to childhood sports than the priesthood. We just don't know at the moment.

What is particularly disgusting about religious paedophiles is that in the eye of the victim they are a representative of God. Therefore, they are also the worst kind of paedophiles because they abuse that perceived divine authority over the victim. Recovery by the victim must be so much harder because of that.

I'd be surprised. On the child abuse awareness courses I've attended they give you reams of psychology studies (Jenkins, Berlin, Carnes etc) who all argue paedos are as likely to be married heterosexuals than anything else. Those courses teach that the stats show men with the sexual attraction to young children will be more like to seek jobs or pastimes that give them access to and power over children as well as protection from being discovered.

Yes, I think historically this will be the case.

 

[Gaggoears]

Covering up the abuse of minors for donkeys years. One of the senior clergy who turned a blind eye looks like he is going down.

Archbishop guilty of child abuse cover-up

Hopefully this will force bishops to nip abuse in the bud rather than the church just moving abusers on to other places or countries for the abuse to continue.

If there is any real justice the thousands of victims all over the world of these sad perverts will get some sort of recompense that they've been fighting for.

I'm sure this is not just confined to the Catholic church. Abuse and religion always seem to go hand in hand.

The stats say most are abused in the family !

 

[Epping]

The stats say most are abused in the family !

but then most live in a family where only a few go to church

 

[Gaggoears]

but then most live in a family where only a few go to church

Right. Let's ignore the family bit and stick with the church then.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

Covering up the abuse of minors for donkeys years. One of the senior clergy who turned a blind eye looks like he is going down.

Archbishop guilty of child abuse cover-up

Hopefully this will force bishops to nip abuse in the bud rather than the church just moving abusers on to other places or countries for the abuse to continue.

If there is any real justice the thousands of victims all over the world of these sad perverts will get some sort of recompense that they've been fighting for.

I'm sure this is not just confined to the Catholic church. Abuse and religion always seem to go hand in hand.

Child abuse is more often by a family member than by someone outside of the family. According to statistics, the most likely peopl3 to abuse children are accountants, so I’m not sure why priests etc get so much condemnation. Perhaps we should be teaching our children to avoid accountants?

 

[Gaggoears]

The last Pope was complicit in it so we shouldn't be surprised.

Was prince Andrew complicit ? One of his best mates got done.

 

[Hardyman's Yugo]

what you on about... far more football coaches than there are priests

I really think one of the problems with Priests and the catholic church is the celibacy vow . its stirring up trouble.

This^^^. It's a complete lie tbh
Get some priests who are married and have real world experience of families

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

Child abuse is more often by a family member than by someone outside of the family. According to statistics, the most likely peopl3 to abuse children are accountants, so I’m not sure why priests etc get so much condemnation. Perhaps we should be teaching our children to avoid accountants?

I think the reasons have already been stated in the thread such as:

.....What makes Catholicism so corrupted on the matter is that in the institution, the literature sees the child as something to be specially protected above everything else, their innocence is seen as the ideal - to be copied by the rest of us. It's the fact that they allowed child abusers to flourish within that environment and be massively protected that sticks in the craw as much as the abuse itself...

....What is particularly disgusting about religious paedophiles is that in the eye of the victim they are a representative of God. Therefore, they are also the worst kind of paedophiles because they abuse that perceived divine authority over the victim. Recovery by the victim must be so much harder because of that........

I dread to contemplate the psychological damage caused of being abused by a perceived representative of God. It goes right down to the soul/core of the child who may never truly recover.

 

[Some Random Guy]

I'd be surprised. On the child abuse awareness courses I've attended they give you reams of psychology studies (Jenkins, Berlin, Carnes etc) who all argue paedos are as likely to be married heterosexuals than anything else. Those courses teach that the stats show men with the sexual attraction to young children will be more like to seek jobs or pastimes that give them access to and power over children as well as protection from being discovered.

Married people can't become priests, straight away your likely paedophile isn't someone that can be in this particular cohort of offenders.

I had a theory that abstinence was a factor when it came to Catholic priest noncery, I feel this was a perfectly valid hypothesis to raise in a thread about sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

A cursory search found evidence supporting my theory.

I've not suggested you are wrong, simply that there are other factors than nonces joining the clergy to gain the opportunity to nonce. You however are suggesting I am talking shite, I think the onus should be on you to prove it.

Rather than being surprised go a see for yourself, try Cahill and Wilkinson.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

So do you think all these paedos just become priests to get access to kids? It seems massively widespread in the catholic church. Or maybe because it's such a large organisation it just seems that way.

I wonder what percentage of priests have turned out to be paedos compared to football coaches for example?

Perhaps you should read this paying very close attention to the statistic that says that less than 1% of abuse is by professionals such as teachers, priests, people in authority.

A witch hunt of priests does little or nothing to affect the over 98% of abuse that children experience. Perhaps you need to open your eyes a little more, get over the anti religious position and actually view the problem without bias against anyone.

Facts/Stats on Child abuse

 

[Gaggoears]

Perhaps you should read this paying very close attention to the statistic that says that less than 1% of abuse is by professionals such as teachers, priests, people in authority.

A witch hunt of priests does little or nothing to affect the over 98% of abuse that children experience. Perhaps you need to open your eyes a little more, get over the anti religious position and actually view the problem without bias against anyone.

Facts/Stats on Child abuse

Spot on.

 

[JonMc]

Married people can't become priests, straight away your likely paedophile isn't someone that can be in this particular cohort of offenders.

I had a theory that abstinence was a factor when it came to Catholic priest noncery, I feel this was a perfectly valid hypothesis to raise in a thread about sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

A cursory search found evidence supporting my theory.

I've not suggested you are wrong, simply that there are other factors than nonces joining the clergy to gain the opportunity to nonce. You however are suggesting I am talking shite, I think the onus should be on you to prove it.

Rather than being surprised go a see for yourself, try Cahill and Wilkinson.

That has nothing to do with it. Married men are as likely to commit child abuse as any other man, celibate or not. That's just the facts.

And it's fine as long as you give equal credence to the rest of the findings in that report....
... that “young and vulnerable Catholic children, especially boys, were in danger and at risk in the presence of psychosexually immature, psychosexually maldeveloped and sexually deprived and deeply frustrated male priests and male religious, particularly those who had not satisfactorily resolved their own sexual identity”. “This was especially so if these priests and religious were confused or in denial about their homosexual orientation while training and operating in a profoundly homophobic Church environment,”

So there you go. According to the same report it becomes clear that if you are gay and abstain from sex then you are more likely to abuse children than if you are not 'especially so' according to that research.

And here's me thinking that we had gotten past all that. Seems not to be the case.