Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES) - Please put sensitive content behind a spoiler

safc9450

Winger
Somewhere in Russia the troll farm gaffer will be reading this thread and seething.

Why won’t they listen dammit?!?

Somewhere in Russia the troll farm gaffer will be reading this thread and seething.

Why won’t they listen dammit?!?

More meat for the grinder. Imagine how many would die in a harsh winter.
More like a 100000 people seeking asylum in the EU.
 


Scotty

Striker
some good points, but I have to disagree a little.

Mind its all if and butts at this stage, but had the Germans not been delayed, had they went direct to Moscow, I think things would have been very different, plenty of people hated the Stalin government and was no love lost, it also took time to move the equipment and factories, with the politic head removed chaos would have ruled. The Germans would have been seen to be unstoppable.
I remember an old lady being interviewed, cant remember if it was on TV or a book, but she said there was little choice between Hitler or Stalin, both hated the people, both would be happy to see them die, both tyrants. it came down to choosing the one that could speak Russian.

I do enjoy reading about it, if the panzer Divisions weren't removed from north group, if this and if that.

Fun to discuss but we will never really know what could have happen, we just see what happened and looking back helps with looking forward today.

You do make a valid point which is important today, Logistics win wars and its Russia's current logistic problems which will be a massive factor in losing this war in Ukraine.

i dont want to derail the thread (we'll leave that to the Putin bots)

;)

but

i'm not sure you cant not delay the Germans start date

going earlier means the ground is still in that Eastern Europe 'sticky phase' (for want of a better description), it had'nt quite dried up enough

also, the Germans are still repositioning the forces that they used to bail out Mussolini. They cant not bail him out because the Greeks/Brits are pushing them back, and Yugoslavia is still going to flip

And if you can wind the clock back even further and say to Italy 'dont do anything stupid' re: Greece - well then ok you've improved your Barbarossa start date and increased your available forces but what you gain here you lose by the Brits rolling up North Africa and still having Greece in the picture
 

chrismisterx

Midfield
i dont want to derail the thread (we'll leave that to the Putin bots)

;)

but

i'm not sure you cant not delay the Germans start date

going earlier means the ground is still in that Eastern Europe 'sticky phase' (for want of a better description), it had'nt quite dried up enough

also, the Germans are still repositioning the forces that they used to bail out Mussolini. They cant not bail him out because the Greeks/Brits are pushing them back, and Yugoslavia is still going to flip

And if you can wind the clock back even further and say to Italy 'dont do anything stupid' re: Greece - well then ok you've improved your Barbarossa start date and increased your available forces but what you gain here you lose by the Brits rolling up North Africa and still having Greece in the picture
I think it was 6 weeks lost thanks to Italy, if you remember in North Africa the brits were in a bit of a mess due to its success, it had just taken 10000's of Italian prisoners due to the fast collapse on that front and IIRC supply lines were a little stretched, it was also around this time the Western Desert force had some of its formations reformed iirc I think the main one was the mobile Division was reformed into the 7th Armoured Division ( desert rats ), Rommel would have still been sent or Africa would have been lost, but without the Greece mess on top of that the Germans could have started beginning of May. I think it was 10 Divisions and 1000's of planes, all which were needed for the Russian front that were diverted in April , I think it was the Divisions stationed in Bulgaria that were sent or maybe it was the attack was from there, cant remember now, would need to google it heh. a nightmare of moving pieces around and wasted valuable time.

Think its safe to say, Italy become a nightmare ally, causing more than enough problems for the Germans.

would that have made a difference, all the plans changed due to that moment, who knows really.

To keep it sort of on topic, you can see kind of the same things playing out now in Ukraine, poor command and control at the front is knocking all to pot the plans made at Moscow, I think we can see the command structure of the Russians just cant adapt on the ground and is slow to react because they always need orders from above, it seems they are scared to act on there own, Ukraine seems to be much more fluid and maybe trusts its commanders to make the right choices without being micro managed. It goes to show how hard this war lark really is, its easy sitting at home saying "just do this" "just do that" but no plans survive contact with the enemy and even the best made plans have to be fluid, thats where your commanders come into there own.

Maybe it just seems that why due to logistical problems.

edit

cheers for the discussion, your right we should leave it there, dont want to derail the news thread.
 

Luna17

Midfield
aaah, this old chestnut

point 1. look at a map, see how far the germans got in OTL. Now look at see how far again it is to the industries that were moved to the Urals, or to the oilfields

point 2. look at the concentration of forces that the Germans amassed to go East, and compare it with what they left behind in France, or transferred to North Africa

logistics win wars, and the Germans were at the end of their rope
The Germans were a whisker away from doing the Russians at Kursk 1943. Had they been able to concentrate more manpower, tanks etc in the east, are you telling me the Russians would have won ?
 

smoker

Striker
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Wild Card

Midfield

smoker

Striker

Tin hat and that but it's time for Ukraine to destroy the Kakhovka dam. Its technically a war crime but useful idiots like Amnesty have already strung them up for defending themselves in face of constant Russian war crimes so time to take the gloves off. Despite all the hopium about melting barrels and destroyed ammo dumps, Russia still have enough heavy artillery to keep pounding Ukraine till next Spring. They're at a disadvantage in infantry, self propelled artillery Is their trump card and its weak spot is logistics. A single cruise missile should do it.
 

Wild Card

Midfield
Tin hat and that but it's time for Ukraine to destroy the Kakhovka dam. Its technically a war crime but useful idiots like Amnesty have already strung them up for defending themselves in face of constant Russian war crimes so time to take the gloves off. Despite all the hopium about melting barrels and destroyed ammo dumps, Russia still have enough heavy artillery to keep pounding Ukraine till next Spring. They're at a disadvantage in infantry, self propelled artillery Is their trump card and its weak spot is logistics. A single cruise missile should do it.
Is that the dam that controls the water leading into Crimea?
 

lurker

Striker
Tin hat and that but it's time for Ukraine to destroy the Kakhovka dam. Its technically a war crime but useful idiots like Amnesty have already strung them up for defending themselves in face of constant Russian war crimes so time to take the gloves off. Despite all the hopium about melting barrels and destroyed ammo dumps, Russia still have enough heavy artillery to keep pounding Ukraine till next Spring. They're at a disadvantage in infantry, self propelled artillery Is their trump card and its weak spot is logistics. A single cruise missile should do it.
Would have to be a hell of a cruise missile to weaken concrete that thick, would need a bunker buster type munition or a Barnes Wallis type contraption!
 

smoker

Striker
Is that the dam that controls the water leading into Crimea?
Aye. Also electricity from the hydro electric plant. The flash flood would like destroy the bridges downstream, several villages and (depending on topography) central Kherson. It would stop Russia resupplying the troops on the western Bank for weeks.
 

martinlumley

Striker
Would have to be a hell of a cruise missile to weaken concrete that thick, would need a bunker buster type munition or a Barnes Wallis type contraption!
There's a bridge adjacent to the dam across a side canal, AFU need to take out that bridge with Himars, just to notify Russia, 'we have the co-ordinates, we have the weapons, we have the justification' then the ball is in Russia's court.
 

lurker

Striker
Have the Russians been bumping shit old
Gear and ammo up to the front to make Ukraine run out of HIMARS before they send what’s left of the elite troops and tanks in?
 

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