Incident at Tate Modern Art Gallery...

[PeteFTM]

Shouldn’t we wait for the full story to come out before we conclude who didn’t deal with this correctly

The moron told staff that he was planning to kill someone. He was left unattended in the exact type of area he’d told staff he’d planned to kill someone, despite also being on bail.

I don’t care what the rest of the story is, the company need to take responsibility for their negligence.

Who’s exact fault it is within the company is the question.

 

[Frijj]

I think its equally as horrid that some think just because hes autistic it gives some form of "excuse" for what he did.

I saw similiar excuses for the Sandy Hook shooter and its complete BS imo - absolutely plenty of austic and mentally slow folk who pose no harm to anyone.

This wanker is evil and has probably gotten through life doing whatever he's wanted and any act of violence or rage is blamed on his condition.

Lock him up and throw away the key- should be minimum 25-30 years the scumbag.

Lock him up absolutely but that’s an awfully blunt characterisation of the mentally unwell.

 

[YorkMackem]

So we just chuck disabled and mentally ill people in prison before they commit crimes?

How far do we take the risks with "care in the community" then? There has to be a limit.

 

[PeteFTM]

Good lord. Is this really how people feel about those who are mentally ill? The lad clearly was not of sound mind when he did what he did, so to call for him to be killed in prison is shocking really.

What a disgusting, sickening thing to say. I’d say you should be ashamed of yourself but doubtless you have no shame.

Oh okay, he wasn’t of sound mind, we should be nice to him, he wasn’t well bless him. Should just have a nice time in prison like he wanted, poor lad has been struggling.

 

[EverBlue86]

Lock him up absolutely but that’s an awfully blunt characterisation of the mentally unwell.

I just think society gives too many excuses these days marra - he clearly wanted to do something he knew was wrong and for me its no different to some perfectly "sane" kid wanting to shoot up a school to make the news.

I dont think any condition he had should give him any sentence reduction / sympathy from the public but it likely will do.

Sadly mental health is becoming more and more used by the legal system as some form of excuse which for me is completely wrong.

If he knows right from wrong then its a fair cop for me.

 

[mutley]

Mental illness or not someone who is capable of a crime like that should be locked up indefinitely.

 

[Captain Slackbladder]

How far do we take the risks with "care in the community" then? There has to be a limit.

Not slashing social care budgets to the bone would be a good start. That's austerity for you...

 

[mutley]

I just think society gives too many excuses these days marra - he clearly wanted to do something he knew was wrong and for me its no different to some perfectly "sane" kid wanting to shoot up a school to make the news.

I dont think any condition he had should give him any sentence reduction / sympathy from the public but it likely will do.

Sadly mental health is becoming more and more used by the legal system as some form of excuse which for me is completely wrong.

If he knows right from wrong then its a fair cop for me.

The fact he is mentally ill will be of no comfort to his victim or the victims family.

 

[Frijj]

The fact he is mentally ill will be of no comfort to his victim or the victims family.

But we don’t apply the law for justice for the victim, we apply the law for justice for society

I just think society gives too many excuses these days marra - he clearly wanted to do something he knew was wrong and for me its no different to some perfectly "sane" kid wanting to shoot up a school to make the news.

I dont think any condition he had should give him any sentence reduction / sympathy from the public but it likely will do.

Sadly mental health is becoming more and more used by the legal system as some form of excuse which for me is completely wrong.

If he knows right from wrong then its a fair cop for me.

I think there’s a strong argument here that he’s at the extreme end of the spectrum and did not have the capacity to control himself.

He really should never have been allowed out.

 

[mutley]

But we don’t apply the law for justice for the victim, we apply the law for justice for society

That's irrelevant to my quote, his illness will be of no comfort to his victim.

But we don’t apply the law for justice for the victim, we apply the law for justice for society


I think there’s a strong argument here that he’s at the extreme end of the spectrum and did not have the capacity to control himself.

He really should never have been allowed out.

Your last sentence is 100%correct in my opinion.

 

[TDalt]

Not slashing social care budgets to the bone would be a good start. That's austerity for you...

Nothing to do with austerity. What we meant to do, have someone follow him round 24/7 for the rest of his life?

 

[Frijj]

That's irrelevant to my quote, his illness will be of no comfort to his victim.

Well that’s pretty obvious. There’s no need to say that unless you’re saying that their need for comfort trumps the need for society to take a balanced view on mentally ill people in the community.

 

[EverBlue86]

But we don’t apply the law for justice for the victim, we apply the law for justice for society


I think there’s a strong argument here that he’s at the extreme end of the spectrum and did not have the capacity to control himself.

He really should never have been allowed out.

I agree he shouldnt have been allowed out - but surely if you know right from wrong you deserve everything you get?

The fact he knew doing what he did would make the news and land him in prison shows despite his condition he has full awareness of what he was doing & the severity of it - I sincerly hope he isnt given a reduced sentence as he has little to no excuse imo.

 

[YorkMackem]

Nothing to do with austerity. What we meant to do, have someone follow him round 24/7 for the rest of his life?

To be honest if ever there was a case for full secure hospitalisation, this was it.

 

[Frijj]

Nothing to do with austerity. What we meant to do, have someone follow him round 24/7 for the rest of his life?

Well, it kind of is actually. If it was a private company providing his care, which had been commissioned by an NHS or Local Authority body to provide such care, then you could say that funding cuts mean substandard care, as the values of contracts are lower and the service suffers to compensate.

I agree he shouldnt have been allowed out - but surely if you know right from wrong you deserve everything you get?

The fact he knew doing what he did would make the news and land him in prison shows despite his condition he has full awareness of what he was doing & the severity of it - I sincerly hope he isnt given a reduced sentence as he has little to no excuse imo.

Knowing it and having the capacity to control yourself are not one and the same though.

 

[mutley]

Well that’s pretty obvious. There’s no need to say that unless you’re saying that their need for comfort trumps the need for society to take a balanced view on mentally ill people in the community.

Why reply to my quote then if you knew your reply was irrelevant?

 

[EverBlue86]

Well, it kind of is actually. If it was a private company providing his care, which had been commissioned by an NHS or Local Authority body to provide such care, then you could say that funding cuts mean substandard care, as the values of contracts are lower and the service suffers to compensate.


Knowing it and having the capacity to control yourself are not one and the same though.

I honestly think its impossible to know that in fairness.

Plenty of serial killers have said when caught they would never have stopped killing due to being unable to control themselves - would you suggest no prison time for them because they apparently had no self control compared to the "average" person on the street?

Its a very slippery slope if you start arguing that just because someone has reduced self control (for whatever reason be it mental health, personality disorders, drug/alcohol/sex/gambling addition it should play a factor in a court room.

For me true mental illness in the justice system should be if the person genuinely doesnt know what they did was wrong - they shouldn't be punished - but any sort of knowledge of right and wrong should be punished the same manner as you or I imo.

 

[Dun Scathach]

I think its equally as horrid that some think just because hes autistic it gives some form of "excuse" for what he did.

I saw similiar excuses for the Sandy Hook shooter and its complete BS imo - absolutely plenty of autistic and mentally challenged/slow folk who pose no harm to anyone.

This wanker is evil and has probably gotten through life doing whatever he's wanted and any act of violence or rage is blamed on his condition.

Lock him up and throw away the key- should be minimum 25-30 years the scumbag.

I think the schizophrenia has more to do with it to be honest. Ive seen people with serious mental ill-health attempt to gouge out their own eyes. i know of a case with a guy in Hartlepool who attempted to disembowel himself on account of voices telling him he had worms inside of him. Its perfectly conceivable that they have sufficient delusions to do something dreadful. Im aware of people who have never experienced mental ill health until their 50's, some family men, another a GP with adult kids and grandchildren. Be very very careful about making ill informed and poorly educated sweeping comments about people. Have a heart mate.

Once over they were normal like you and I.

Nothing to do with austerity. What we meant to do, have someone follow him round 24/7 for the rest of his life?

A 2-1 care package costs roughly 170k per annum. Local authorities have to fund this against a decreasing budget.

 

[Deleted member 26533]

I think its equally as horrid that some think just because hes autistic it gives some form of "excuse" for what he did.

I saw similiar excuses for the Sandy Hook shooter and its complete BS imo - absolutely plenty of autistic and mentally challenged/slow folk who pose no harm to anyone.

This wanker is evil and has probably gotten through life doing whatever he's wanted and any act of violence or rage is blamed on his condition.

Lock him up and throw away the key- should be minimum 25-30 years the scumbag.

It's not an excuse for his actions, but it doesn't mean that given he's autistic with murderous thoughts that he hasn't also been failed by the system.

 

[Frijj]

Why reply to my quote then if you knew your reply was irrelevant?

I didn’t know it was, nor do I think it is. It’s obvious you were suggesting something more than the plain statement you made.

I honestly think its impossible to know that in fairness.

Plenty of serial killers have said when caught they would never have stopped killing due to being unable to control themselves - would you suggest no prison time for them because they apparently had no self control compared to the "average" person on the street?

Its a very slippery slope if you start arguing that just because someone has reduced self control (for whatever reason be it mental health, personality disorders, drug/alcohol/sex/gambling addition it should play a factor in a court room.

For me true mental illness in the justice system should be if the person genuinely doesnt know what they did was wrong - they shouldn't be punished - but any sort of knowledge of right and wrong should be punished the same manner as you or I imo.

I don’t believe I have at any point suggested no imprisonment.