Gender equality at festivals

[pillars of hercules]

If we don't divide everyone up by Gender, Race and Sexuality

Then how on Earth will we ever get to an equal opportunity society?

The real inequality is by privilege of birth. Kids that grow up in wealthy families tend to do well.

 

[Deleted member 22162]

It's a cycle though isn't it, as @Bukowski pointed out earlier. Male bands get all the exposure, the radio plays, then they get the festival slots etc. It takes a long time to turn around bloke dominated industries, breaking the habits takes years. We're at the start of it becoming a bit more normal and it's good to see. The public gets what they're given, it can change through exposure.

There's no reason why male bands should be more popular than females, is there? It's just what people are exposed to. It's funny as in straight up pop music, where there isn't that masculinity running through it, there's far more balance.

Very on brand comment!

yep. Take a look at Radio X daytime playlist - Liam, Noel, two Sam Fender tunes... not one female artist, not even a band member. I don’t believe X listeners would physically turn off the radio if a good guitar tune by a female artist or band came on, but they never need to make that choice when it’s 100% bloke bands.

The real inequality is by privilege of birth. Kids that grow up in wealthy families tend to do well.

and in my experience there are f***ing loads of them in bands

 

[Aituk7]

The real inequality is by privilege of birth. Kids that grow up in wealthy families tend to do well.

Real privileges and the real problem of equality of opportunity used to be the issues we would target in this country.

Instead people decide to deal with shit like this because its easier and they can go look at me doing something good

 

[seahamstar]

That environment already exists and has done for a long long time. If they're good enough, they sell. They play.

Have to agree with this.
It's similar (imo) with jobs etc -- surely being successful in getting a job/management position should be judged on merit alone , not on 'keeping the gender balance right'.
I'm all for equality in ALL walks of life, but surely then it should be on merit - or it's not an equal playing field.
There must be a lot more female nurses than men nurses, yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that not being a fair gender split.

 

[pillars of hercules]

yep. Take a look at Radio X daytime playlist - Liam, Noel, two Sam Fender tunes... not one female artist, not even a band member. I don’t believe X listeners would physically turn off the radio if a good guitar tune by a female artist or band came on, but they never need to make that choice when it’s 100% bloke bands.


and in my experience there are f***ing loads of them in bands

Probably a good cross section of society in music.

Real privileges and the real problem of equality of opportunity used to be the issues we would target in this country.

Instead people decide to deal with shit like this because its easier and they can go look at me doing something good

Yep. Probably more about looking good and fitting in than really caring about their fellow human beings.

 

[Aituk7]

Have to agree with this.
It's similar (imo) with jobs etc -- surely being successful in getting a job/management position should be judged on merit alone , not on 'keeping the gender balance right'.
I'm all for equality in ALL walks of life, but surely then it should be on merit - or it's not an equal playing field.
There must be a lot more female nurses than men nurses, yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that not being a fair gender split.

The thinking on this is now outdated.

10 years ago people used to think women wouldn't go into roles because there was no inspiration, it was a male heavy enviornment etc.

The truth is lots of studies have been done on this and I was part of one working with stemwise (women in science and engineering) for 2 years.

And what they found is that a lot of women are not the wallflowers some perceive them to be scared of doing this and that, they just do what they enjoy and are far pickier than men when it comes to choosing what to do in life.

Yep. Probably more about looking good and fitting in than really caring about their fellow human beings.

The really weird thing for me is the fact that other people always feel like they should do something about it.

The same people who preach feminism and say women are strong and independant, say they have to be helped wherever possible because they simply cannot compete.

It's backwards logic and very condescending.

 

[pillars of hercules]

The thinking on this is now outdated.

10 years ago people used to think women wouldn't go into roles because there was no inspiration, it was a male heavy enviornment etc.

The truth is lots of studies have been done on this and I was part of one working with stemwise (women in science and engineering) for 2 years.

And what they found is that a lot of women are not the wallflowers some perceive them to be scared of doing this and that, they just do what they enjoy and are far pickier than men when it comes to choosing what to do in life.

The really weird thing for me is the fact that other people always feel like they should do something about it.

The same people who preach feminism and say women are strong and independant, say they have to be helped wherever possible because they simply cannot compete.

It's backwards logic and very condescending.

Some people simply won't acknowledge the reality of things. Women are less able in general to compete with men in some areas because they are often not as strong or aggressive. That's not to say all women are weaker than all men. That's the physical side of inequality.

The other side of inequality is when women have been denied opportunities, or discouraged from trying 'mens' things. It's probably fair that women should be given a bit of help to get to a level playing field, but not at the expense of a man that was obviously better.

After re reading this I think I began to ramble there

 

[Aituk7]

Some people simply won't acknowledge the reality of things. Women are less able in general to compete with men in some areas because they are often not as strong or aggressive. That's not to say all women are weaker than all men. That's the physical side of inequality.

The other side of inequality is when women have been denied opportunities, or discouraged from trying 'mens' things. It's probably fair that women should be given a bit of help to get to a level playing field, but not at the expense of a man that was obviously better.

After re reading this I think I began to ramble there

I see what you're saying though.

The thing is, no one is denying there historically have been obvious sexist attitudes to what women can or should do.

The problem is nowadays that same method of thinking is applied too easily without scrutiny. Not enough women taking part in something.... that must be sexism.

When it isn't necessarily the case. There are many studies to back this up, women think differently to men. They just do and it's a good thing otherwise society would be fucked. We need people to think differently to each other.

And most importantly there should be no shame in it. I think this also drives alot of this thinking. I think sometimes people look at what women enjoy doing in life and think they aren't fulfilling their potential or something. Like secretly they must be miserable and want to be a rockstar... why wouldn't you want to be in a band, I love it so you should too. It's a lot more nuanced than that.

But people have to understand, if we made the suits more comfortable and got rid of all the men to hire women only, they still aren't going to be applying to work in the sewers. It's only men who reliably fill those roles.

 

[pillars of hercules]

I see what you're saying though.

The thing is, no one is denying there historically have been obvious sexist attitudes to what women can or should do.

The problem is nowadays that same method of thinking is applied too easily without scrutiny. Not enough women taking part in something.... that must be sexism.

When it isn't necessarily the case. There are many studies to back this up, women think differently to men. They just do and it's a good thing otherwise society would be fucked. We need people to think differently to each other.

And most importantly there should be no shame in it. I think this also drives alot of this thinking. I think sometimes people look at what women enjoy doing in life and think they aren't fulfilling their potential or something. Like secretly they must be miserable and want to be a rockstar... why wouldn't you want to be in a band, I love it so you should too. It's a lot more nuanced than that.

But people have to understand, if we made the suits more comfortable and got rid of all the men to hire women only, they still aren't going to be applying to work in the sewers. It's only men who reliably fill those roles.

I think it's ok to have male dominated industries as long as women aren't denied the opportunity to enter without prejudice.

I know sometimes from experience women will do certain jobs but sometimes aren't physically equipped to do them.

 

[Aituk7]

I think it's ok to have male dominated industries as long as women aren't denied the opportunity to enter without prejudice.

I know sometimes from experience women will do certain jobs but sometimes aren't physically equipped to do them.

I think the physicality issue is being reduced over time. It's more a case of not wanting to do them nowadays.

The best example of this is accounting and economics.

Two industries that have significant overlaps in the education route needed etc.

Economics on average makes more money than accountancy

Women outnumber men in accountancy but not in economics. They choose to do accountancy, not because they want less money I'm sure, but because they want the human interaction.

 

[James]

Real privileges and the real problem of equality of opportunity used to be the issues we would target in this country.

Instead people decide to deal with shit like this because its easier and they can go look at me doing something good

It's possible to care about both things at the same time though, both are issues. The former will only be sorted through political change and structural reform, and I'm not holding out much hope for that in this basket case of a country.

People have a bit more control over things like this and can make a difference. It will help even the playing field and that's a good thing. I'm certainly not trying to look good on a Sunderland message board, our lass thinks I'm a right sad bastard for being on here anyway.

 

[Aituk7]

It's possible to care about both things at the same time though, both are issues. The former will only be sorted through political change and structural reform, and I'm not holding out much hope for that in this basket case of a country.

People have a bit more control over things like this and can make a difference. It will help even the playing field and that's a good thing. I'm certainly not trying to look good on a Sunderland message board, our lass thinks I'm a right sad bastard for being on here anyway.

Our lass used to think the same but even she reads this place now. Which is annoying because sometimes she'll show me funny things she's seen on here and that used to be the thing I could do and show her.

I think your goal, for lack of a better word, of gender balances is unattainable and should be left by the wayside.

Aslong as the opportunities are there for all and as far as I'm aware they are then there isn't a problem

Whenever these issues come up it's always about jobs or roles that are slightly more glamorous. No one wants real equality, they don't go I want 50% of builders, plumbers, sewage workers and bin collecters to be women aswell.

There's a tiny chance of anyone making money out of music, there are jobs out there tomorrow you can make better than minimum wage off you could focus on, but no one does.

And that's not a dig at you marra, I get what you're saying comes from a good place.

 

[pillars of hercules]

I think the physicality issue is being reduced over time. It's more a case of not wanting to do them nowadays.

The best example of this is accounting and economics.

Two industries that have significant overlaps in the education route needed etc.

Economics on average makes more money than accountancy

Women outnumber men in accountancy but not in economics. They choose to do accountancy, not because they want less money I'm sure, but because they want the human interaction.

From a government point of view I do wonder why some 'womens' jobs are undervalued. Nurses in particular have to go through university, start with shit pay, do shit hours in often traumatic circumstances. More women probably chose to do this in general because of this human interaction, but because they generally start in the NHS it's the government that deems this occupation to be of low financial value.

The physical thing I agree with but there will still always be a difference. Even just yesterday a lass at work asked me to carry a box into the office as it was too heavy for her. She does a similar job to me.

 

[Aituk7]

From a government point of view I do wonder why some 'womens' jobs are undervalued. Nurses in particular have to go through university, start with shit pay, do shit hours in often traumatic circumstances. More women probably chose to do this in general because of this human interaction, but because they generally start in the NHS it's the government that deems this occupation to be of low financial value.

The physical thing I agree with but there will still always be a difference. Even just yesterday a lass at work asked me to carry a box into the office as it was too heavy for her. She does a similar job to me.

It's market forces unfortunately, we can hire nurses from abroad and have them work for that price no bother.

I will say though that there are plenty of "male" jobs that start off on shit pay too. I mean working in a skiled trade such as electrician or plumber when you start out isn't cushty either.

 

[James]

Our lass used to think the same but even she reads this place now. Which is annoying because sometimes she'll show me funny things she's seen on here and that used to be the thing I could do and show her.

I think your goal, for lack of a better word, of gender balances is unattainable and should be left by the wayside.

Aslong as the opportunities are there for all and as far as I'm aware they are then there isn't a problem

Whenever these issues come up it's always about jobs or roles that are slightly more glamorous. No one wants real equality, they don't go I want 50% of builders, plumbers, sewage workers and bin collecters to be women aswell.

There's a tiny chance of anyone making money out of music, there are jobs out there tomorrow you can make better than minimum wage off you could focus on, but no one does.

And that's not a dig at you marra, I get what you're saying comes from a good place.

If someone started a thread asking about whether the plumbing industry trying to achieve a 50:50 split should even be a thing, I'd probably chip in. That's as far as my focus or effort goes.

Would hate to think our lass views my posts on here mind! I don't think she appreciates how weird the place is, and I'm glad of that.

 

[Stubbs ftm]

Lasses have urinals and she pees at loads of festivals, if that's not equality then I Dinnar what is.

 

[pillars of hercules]

It's market forces unfortunately, we can hire nurses from abroad and have them work for that price no bother.

I will say though that there are plenty of "male" jobs that start off on shit pay too. I mean working in a skiled trade such as electrician or plumber when you start out isn't cushty either.

Yeah I agree about market forces but the NHS are prime drivers of this in nursing. Once qualified many British nurses will go into the private sector or abroad where market forces dictate a higher wage.

We have 40000 nursing vacancies in the NHS which require graduates. Even offering bursaries and free tuition fees would go along way to encourage British people to go into nursing. The demand is far out weighing the supply but this could be reversed by government intervention.

If someone started a thread asking about whether the plumbing industry trying to achieve a 50:50 split should even be a thing, I'd probably chip in. That's as far as my focus or effort goes.

Would hate to think our lass views my posts on here mind! I don't think she appreciates how weird the place is, and I'm glad of that.

My lass thinks this forum is weird as well

 

[Tadger]

It's a cycle though isn't it, as @Bukowski pointed out earlier. Male bands get all the exposure, the radio plays, then they get the festival slots etc. It takes a long time to turn around bloke dominated industries, breaking the habits takes years. We're at the start of it becoming a bit more normal and it's good to see. The public gets what they're given, it can change through exposure.

There's no reason why male bands should be more popular than females, is there? It's just what people are exposed to. It's funny as in straight up pop music, where there isn't that masculinity running through it, there's far more balance.

Like I said, by all means remove the barriers preventing or hindering women artists, but to expect a 50/50 outcome is ignoring some of the basic differences between men and women on the whole.

I think it's ok to have male dominated industries as long as women aren't denied the opportunity to enter without prejudice.

I know sometimes from experience women will do certain jobs but sometimes aren't physically equipped to do them.

Or simply don’t want to do them.

 

[HellsBells]

Why do you think the number of boys/men that take up the guitar far outnumbers the number of girls/women

Perhaps, just perhaps, it’s because the girls don’t see enough female role models doing it succcessfully in order to make it worth that really difficult learning phase?

Wonder how we could change that, eh?

 

[mad cyril]

Are woman in to music as much as men ? When I was a kid, other than the likes of Bros the lasses weren’t interested. Maybe the odd one but a real minority.
I go to a good few gigs and females are always massively in the minority.
Even my kids, a boy and a girl, he’s into it she’s not. I’ve bought a little drum kit and guitar which he loves yet she’s not bothered.