VARguments

[AC Mack]

Will you now get people and fans admitting how diffcult it was for refs before VAR and they were wrong for calling them cheats, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Derby just scored against Charlton, the goal was given but the linesman has missed a definite offside, for those of you who do not like VAR, this is why it is a good thing, the goal should have been cancelled, it would have been if they had VAR in this division.
Sorry, but I cannot understand people being against VAR, it helps the officials make fewer mistakes, simples.

Football isn't simply about getting the right decision every single time.

 

[Deleted member 6694]

The problem is most of these offsides are so insanely marginal no fucker noticed. Personally I’d rather concede a few midgies dick offside goals to celebrate the ones we scored. People weren’t ranting about this shit man, it was the hand of god incidents, deliberate blatant stuff that shouldn’t have been missed but was. Ok they might be getting loads more decisions right but it’s not added anything to the game, it’s f***ing ruining it, especially for the fans at the game.

I don't think very many are noticing what is actually happening this season. Due to VAR, fans can't notice the offsides where the linesman flags for offside yet the attacker is actually onside and scores. It's not happening as much as it did in previous seasons and the simple reason for this, the linesman have been told to flag only when they think it's clearly offside.

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Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is not certain whether the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, the assistant should delay indicating the offence until the phase of play has concluded.

This means the old days of incorrect offside flags when the attacking team has a remote chance scoring isn't as common. That's why some goals are being chalked off for being offside, even down to the mm as play is being allowed to continue. If the linesman flagged as previous seasons then chances are we wouldn't have seen as many goals in the first place only to be disallowed by VAR due to being a few mm offside. If they did then there would have been quite a few more goals flagged offside but the ref allowing play to continue and then being corrected by VAR to allow the goal.

Shelvey's goal for the Mags being one as Carrol is clearly offside just before the ball is kicked to him. The linesman probably flagged due to the fact Carroll then jumped back as the Sheff Utd player stretched his foot out for a fraction of a second actually played Carroll onside for those few frames of video, something the human eye at distance would not have seen.

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If the linesman flags (but is incorrect) and no goal is going to be scored then the ref normally just gives the offside. Though depending on what develops in trhe seconds after he may overule the linesman and allow the phase of play to continue. Again this is why the ref allowed play for Shelvey's goal even though the linesman thought Carroll was onside (which is understandable). That's why it seems as if VAR is disallowing loads of offside goals rather than allowing onside ones, when actually it's allowing goals that may not have even been a goal to at least be scored.

A quick check of this website shows 735 offsides after 20 games (2 teams on 19) which if it continues would be just over 1400 for the season. Last season and the season there was over 1560 offsides so currently it's a drop of 10% offside decisions or about 160 per season which is just under 1 offside every 2 games. This is probably due to the linesman not calling offside by mistake as much and holding down his flag instead to allow a goalscoring opportunity to continue (which is sometime later called offside by VAR due to a pixel on the screen).

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Here's something to ponder for those who suggest to allow clear and obvious for offside or allow a 'margin' or error. That would mean the linesman would now have to put his flag up all the time if he thinks it's offside (to keep it 'fair' just like the old days) and therefore he'd be flagging offside a lot more. Aye play may continue with the new rule rather being stopped dead like the past but what if a goal is scored and the attacker is then a toenail/armpit onside but it's not clear (just like these offsides people moan about)? That means you'd end up ruling out all the close onside goals due to sticking with the onfield decision as it's not clear and obvious etc, so same problem as now but surely worse given it would mean legitimate goals aren't counted?

I hope people understand what I'm getting at as this post is probably too long winded so here's the short version Basically the linesman isn't flagging offside as much as he's been told not to when he thinks it's too close to call. That's why it looks like VAR is disallowing more goals for offside rather than correcting them due to being onside as the linesman isn't incorrectly flagging offside as much as they did!

Anyway, VAR is still shit with the offside due to the time it takes and the matchday fan experience. Hoy in the fact it can't determine the precise millisecond when the ball is touched and where each player is to the mm. Even though it's not 100% accurate, at least when they go down to the mm it will mean that no team really gets 'favoured' nor is it left to 1 person's interpretation of clear and obvious etc.

Strangely enough, albeit not something great about VAR, a small positive is that it does mean play continues quite a lot more when there's an attacking chance. We've all have groaned plenty at the match when a linesman has flagged when we've been on the break as we don't even get to see what happens. We groaned even more when later you see it was actually onside when the player was clean through so this 'let play continue' allows more chances to develop rather than being nipped in the bud due to 1 person calling it incorrectly!

 

[hank williams]

Least the ruling body have now come out & said it's not to be used for marginal errors in offside

Knew it would be a cluster fuck & once again proved correct

 

[JL1985]

I thought Souness made a good suggestion: If any goal scoring part of the attackers body IS onside, then it shouldn’t be offside.

 

[Deleted member 6694]

Again this is why the ref allowed play for Shelvey's goal even though the linesman thought Carroll was onside (which is understandable). That's why it seems as if VAR is disallowing loads of offside goals rather than allowing onside ones, when actually it's allowing goals that may not have even been a goal to at least be scored.

A quick check of this website shows 735 offsides after 20 games (2 teams on 19) which if it continues would be just over 1400 for the season. Last season and the season there was over 1560 offsides so currently it's a drop of 10% offside decisions or about 160 per season which is just under 1 offside every 2 games. This is probably due to the linesman not calling offside by mistake as much and holding down his flag instead to allow a goalscoring opportunity to continue (which is sometime later called offside by VAR due to a pixel on the screen).

:edit: Corrections, I meant the linesman though Carroll was offside and the 1 in 2 games is every game by all teams not 1 team, so at over 4 less offsides every full set of weekend fixtures.

I thought Souness made a good suggestion: If any goal scoring part of the attackers body IS onside, then it shouldn’t be offside.

Then what happens when there's a mm difference? All Souness is suggesting is to move the offside line to another place yet you'd still have the exact same problem. The same goes with the daylight thing, where do you draw the line?

Least the ruling body have now come out & said it's not to be used for marginal errors in offside

Knew it would be a cluster fuck & once again proved correct

Hank, I doubt if you or anyone will have read my previous post as it's far too long though there is a short version.

Like I said in that previous post, the linesman are holding back some offside flags this season or not even bothering to put them up seeing as VAR checks anyway when a goal is scored. To allow a margin of error the linesman would have to flag as normal. That mean they'd be flagging incorrectly by not only feet but inches or even mm as they have in the past simply because it's impossible to call offside correctly. The fact the linesman sometimes isn't flagging (though may have flagged last season) means that close calls go to VAR if there's a goal, hence why a few are getting ruled out to the mm.

The new 'let play continue' rule means the ref still allows play to continue if the linesman does flag to see it a goal is scored. If a goal is scored, would you be happy if the linesman wasn't corrected and the goal isn't given even though the attacker was then shown to onside by a few cm?

Also who decides if it's marginal, how big is marginal and are they saying go with the on pitch officials if it is marginal? If they say, well 1 foot is marginal, what happens when it's 1mm either side of it seeing as the freeze frame can't be precise now so it won't be precise for marginal either. Like I said, what will fans think when marginal onside goals aren't given as the linesman flagged it offside?

The shit thing at the moment is that VAR isn't allowing goals that are very close to offside. The current margin of error is an armpit or a toenail between 2 frames of video. Allowing a margin of error makes that even bigger and more open to debate and interpretation and then leaving it to the linesman's decision (bearing in mind how hard it is) as it's within the margin of error would surely mean legitimate goals will be chalked off which is even worse than now?

 

[tunstallhill]

:edit: Corrections, I meant the linesman though Carroll was offside and the 1 in 2 games is every game by all teams not 1 team, so at over 4 less offsides every full set of weekend fixtures.

Then what happens when there's a mm difference? All Souness is suggesting is to move the offside line to another place yet you'd still have the exact same problem. The same goes with the daylight thing, where do you draw the line?

Hank, I doubt if you or anyone will have read my previous post as it's far too long though there is a short version.

Like I said in that previous post, the linesman are holding back some offside flags this season or not even bothering to put them up seeing as VAR checks anyway when a goal is scored. To allow a margin of error the linesman would have to flag as normal. That mean they'd be flagging incorrectly by not only feet but inches or even mm as they have in the past simply because it's impossible to call offside correctly. The fact the linesman sometimes isn't flagging (though may have flagged last season) means that close calls go to VAR if there's a goal, hence why a few are getting ruled out to the mm.

The new 'let play continue' rule means the ref still allows play to continue if the linesman does flag to see it a goal is scored. If a goal is scored, would you be happy if the linesman wasn't corrected and the goal isn't given even though the attacker was then shown to onside by a few cm?

Also who decides if it's marginal, how big is marginal and are they saying go with the on pitch officials if it is marginal? If they say, well 1 foot is marginal, what happens when it's 1mm either side of it seeing as the freeze frame can't be precise now so it won't be precise for marginal either. Like I said, what will fans think when marginal onside goals aren't given as the linesman flagged it offside?

The shit thing at the moment is that VAR isn't allowing goals that are very close to offside. The current margin of error is an armpit or a toenail between 2 frames of video. Allowing a margin of error makes that even bigger and more open to debate and interpretation and then leaving it to the linesman's decision (bearing in mind how hard it is) as it's within the margin of error would surely mean legitimate goals will be chalked off which is even worse than now?

Simple- the VAR refs have 5 seconds to view a simple replay, if they cant see that the match officials have made an error, then the original decision stands. That way, the only ones over turned are the 'clear and obvious' errors and there'll be no need for the geometry shite on the screen and 3 minutes of delay.

If it was up to me I'd scrap VAR all together at the end of the season

 

[SurreyMackem]

To be onside there has to be 2 opposing players between the attacker and the goal line so they should be checking there is daylight between the attacker and 2nd last man.

 

[Marv]

Before VAR, we had problems. The game was getting faster and faster, and gamesmanship was becoming an increasing problem.

With the success of goal-line technology, more technology was generally popular, however it's been an unmitigated disaster.

We now have more gamesmanship than ever before. Any physical contact is now dramatised by the receiving player because in 30 seconds time the ball could be in the back of your net and you have to sell the foul for the VAR replay.

There was always some bias with referees but it's now gone through the roof. We have two levels of subjectivity instead of one and Liverpool and Man Utd have been major beneficiaries.

It's become clear that the VAR offside measurement has an error bar that is too wide for purpose. It looks like a black and white decision but they don't show you the error bars, if they did there'd be uproar.

The majority of decisions are interpreted no more accurately than before. They are all subjective interpretations of the rules.

And the worst thing is the interruption to the game.

I believe that in the Summer they will change the offside and handball rules but they need to scrap the entire system.

 

[ROKER PARK]

I still think you'd get three officials struggling and stating in that case it wasn't clear and obvious and managers and fans screaming that it was. We'd be in a worse place I reckon.


Again, fans, media, managers would totally lose the plot with that.

I just think this would cut out the length of time wasted on decisions being made and cut out the ridiculous decisions needing microcrospic investigations. We have lived with referees making mistakes regarding offside in the past, many obvious to the eye. It provided many a discussion, even arguments so a I don't see how such a change would create a furore of derision.

 

[bernardbresslaw]

This thread has been taken down a few blind alleys imo.
The main reason i hate VAR still stands, and has in fact been re-enforced by every passing week - it's killing the spontaneity of goal celebrations. I honestly don't care about "getting more decisions correct", that's not what I go to football for. If VAR is still in it's present form when (if) we ever get back to the Premier I might consider actually not bothering with a SC.

 

[worcestermakem]

What we have got is not what we were promised.

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Riley said "Is what the on-field match official team did clearly and obviously wrong in those four key areas?"
It is now being used when no clear and obvious error was made.

Worryingly they knew there were flaws in the whole process.
"In testing, there's no unanimity. Different VARs came up with different outcomes.

What you should not ask yourself is: "Do I think it's right or wrong?" The question is: "Is what the match officials have done a clear and obvious error?"

We keep a very high bar for that intervention."

So VARs will not agree on a decision with the technology and they are ignoring their 'very high bar' on offsides.

 

[Hep]

That was just terrible. His toe offside!! Game will die.

That's not VARs fault that's the offside rule.

 

[darius]

That's not VARs fault that's the offside rule.

It was supposed to be they give the forward the benefit of the doubt to allow the game to flow. This kills it.

 

[Hep]

It was supposed to be they give the forward the benefit of the doubt to allow the game to flow. This kills it.

So not var, the interpretation of the offside rule.

To fix it, we should say if any part of a forwards body is onside, he's onside.

 

[JO1912]

This thread has been taken down a few blind alleys imo.
The main reason i hate VAR still stands, and has in fact been re-enforced by every passing week - it's killing the spontaneity of goal celebrations. I honestly don't care about "getting more decisions correct", that's not what I go to football for. If VAR is still in it's present form when (if) we ever get back to the Premier I might consider actually not bothering with a SC.

Think I debated you on this when the thread first started and my opinion has definitely changed. There has been times where Iv seen players actually not bother celebrating for the goal when it has ended up being given (think it was mings for villa). I think you could be right that the fans do start to follow suit consistently and I don’t think sacrificing that buzz for more correct decisions (they are still getting decisions wrong anyways) is worth it.

 

[TravellingMackem]

I don't think very many are noticing what is actually happening this season. Due to VAR, fans can't notice the offsides where the linesman flags for offside yet the attacker is actually onside and scores. It's not happening as much as it did in previous seasons and the simple reason for this, the linesman have been told to flag only when they think it's clearly offside.

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Where there is a clear and obvious goalscoring opportunity and the assistant referee is not certain whether the attacker actively involved is in an offside position, the assistant should delay indicating the offence until the phase of play has concluded.

This means the old days of incorrect offside flags when the attacking team has a remote chance scoring isn't as common. That's why some goals are being chalked off for being offside, even down to the mm as play is being allowed to continue. If the linesman flagged as previous seasons then chances are we wouldn't have seen as many goals in the first place only to be disallowed by VAR due to being a few mm offside. If they did then there would have been quite a few more goals flagged offside but the ref allowing play to continue and then being corrected by VAR to allow the goal.

Shelvey's goal for the Mags being one as Carrol is clearly offside just before the ball is kicked to him. The linesman probably flagged due to the fact Carroll then jumped back as the Sheff Utd player stretched his foot out for a fraction of a second actually played Carroll onside for those few frames of video, something the human eye at distance would not have seen.

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If the linesman flags (but is incorrect) and no goal is going to be scored then the ref normally just gives the offside. Though depending on what develops in trhe seconds after he may overule the linesman and allow the phase of play to continue. Again this is why the ref allowed play for Shelvey's goal even though the linesman thought Carroll was onside (which is understandable). That's why it seems as if VAR is disallowing loads of offside goals rather than allowing onside ones, when actually it's allowing goals that may not have even been a goal to at least be scored.

A quick check of this website shows 735 offsides after 20 games (2 teams on 19) which if it continues would be just over 1400 for the season. Last season and the season there was over 1560 offsides so currently it's a drop of 10% offside decisions or about 160 per season which is just under 1 offside every 2 games. This is probably due to the linesman not calling offside by mistake as much and holding down his flag instead to allow a goalscoring opportunity to continue (which is sometime later called offside by VAR due to a pixel on the screen).

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Here's something to ponder for those who suggest to allow clear and obvious for offside or allow a 'margin' or error. That would mean the linesman would now have to put his flag up all the time if he thinks it's offside (to keep it 'fair' just like the old days) and therefore he'd be flagging offside a lot more. Aye play may continue with the new rule rather being stopped dead like the past but what if a goal is scored and the attacker is then a toenail/armpit onside but it's not clear (just like these offsides people moan about)? That means you'd end up ruling out all the close onside goals due to sticking with the onfield decision as it's not clear and obvious etc, so same problem as now but surely worse given it would mean legitimate goals aren't counted?

I hope people understand what I'm getting at as this post is probably too long winded so here's the short version Basically the linesman isn't flagging offside as much as he's been told not to when he thinks it's too close to call. That's why it looks like VAR is disallowing more goals for offside rather than correcting them due to being onside as the linesman isn't incorrectly flagging offside as much as they did!

Anyway, VAR is still shit with the offside due to the time it takes and the matchday fan experience. Hoy in the fact it can't determine the precise millisecond when the ball is touched and where each player is to the mm. Even though it's not 100% accurate, at least when they go down to the mm it will mean that no team really gets 'favoured' nor is it left to 1 person's interpretation of clear and obvious etc.

Strangely enough, albeit not something great about VAR, a small positive is that it does mean play continues quite a lot more when there's an attacking chance. We've all have groaned plenty at the match when a linesman has flagged when we've been on the break as we don't even get to see what happens. We groaned even more when later you see it was actually onside when the player was clean through so this 'let play continue' allows more chances to develop rather than being nipped in the bud due to 1 person calling it incorrectly!

Sorry but that’s a load of crap. The point is that you DONT KNOW if someone is narrowly offside or onside. So you don’t actually know if these decisions are correct or not. The technology does not show you whether he’s off or onside. It shows you a still of a particular moment in time that is probably not the frame where the ball was kicked and is definitely not angled without calibration error. So you cannot tell whether the decision is correct or not within the bounds of the technology. Until they introduce some GPS tracking software or something this will remain the case. So your claims about less offsides does not stack as you have assumed that VAR is correct when indeed it cannot be proven to be correct nor incorrect, we simply do not know and will never know.

The only way to correctly get decisions is to add in a margin of error and use the on field decision for this, this margin could easily be calculated from the calibration certificates and things of the software and hardware used. Whether it’s several inches or feet or whatever.

At present it’s akin to setting your local speed camera to ticket at 31mph in a 30 zone, giving tickets to plenty of people who were actually driving 29mph due to the error on the camera and then claiming to have increased correct ticketing numbers. It’s an absolute pile of horseshit in its current form and the FAs claims about increasing correct decisions by x% are pure fabrication.

So not var, the interpretation of the offside rule.

To fix it, we should say if any part of a forwards body is onside, he's onside.

that fixes nothing. It just moves the interface of off/onside along a bit

That's not VARs fault that's the offside rule.

how can VAR prove that he is a toenail offside? Have they got the right frame? Camera calibration? Software calibration?

 

[darius]

There was a goal disallowed the other day because someone was marginally offside ten passes earlier!

 

[myleftfoot1978]

I understand the 'midges dick' point. The problem is defining at which point on the midges / horses dick scale do we draw the line and then once a line is drawn we are right back at the midges dick conundrum.

We don’t draw the line, if t he ref our linesman think it’s close they call for the var? If not just leave it, I have seen 2 goals this weekend chalked off for the tightest of calls, and caused so much moaning and arguments it’s unreal, if it is not ov people watching just leave it.

 

[Vicham]

Sorry but that’s a load of crap. The point is that you DONT KNOW if someone is narrowly offside or onside. So you don’t actually know if these decisions are correct or not. The technology does not show you whether he’s off or onside. It shows you a still of a particular moment in time that is probably not the frame where the ball was kicked and is definitely not angled without calibration error. So you cannot tell whether the decision is correct or not within the bounds of the technology. Until they introduce some GPS tracking software or something this will remain the case. So your claims about less offsides does not stack as you have assumed that VAR is correct when indeed it cannot be proven to be correct nor incorrect, we simply do not know and will never know.

The only way to correctly get decisions is to add in a margin of error and use the on field decision for this, this margin could easily be calculated from the calibration certificates and things of the software and hardware used. Whether it’s several inches or feet or whatever.

At present it’s akin to setting your local speed camera to ticket at 31mph in a 30 zone, giving tickets to plenty of people who were actually driving 29mph due to the error on the camera and then claiming to have increased correct ticketing numbers. It’s an absolute pile of horseshit in its current form and the FAs claims about increasing correct decisions by x% are pure fabrication.


that fixes nothing. It just moves the interface of off/onside along a bit


how can VAR prove that he is a toenail offside? Have they got the right frame? Camera calibration? Software calibration?

Which is exactly the point. Mike Riley and Co might claim they got 200 something decisions correct, but as long as they are using a flawed tool, it can never be correct, only as correct as the flawed tool allows it to be.
Imagine that your contractor leaves you with a crooked floor or table desk and excuses himself by showing you a flawed spirit level, would you then accept that as an excuse/explanation and live with the consequences?

 

[Kevin Arnott's right boot]

If it's not obvious, then it should be "referee's call", similar to cricket.