Hep
Striker
How can a linesman? It's the same argument. It just needs a bit of refinement.
It fixes the argument of people complaining he's only a toenail offside.
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VARguments
- Thread starter bernardbresslaw
- Start date
It fixes the argument of people complaining he's only a toenail offside.
D
Deleted member 6694
Guest
What's a load of crap?
The margin of error suggestion is a load of crap as who decides the margin and how precise is the margin going to be once the margin limit is reached? What happens when fans argue just as much when the players are further apart? If you think that is the answer then it's not as the answer it to go back to the linesman and everyone just accepts it's impossible for a linesman to call offside correctly.Read my post again, there are less offsides this season as in the linesman isn't flagging as much as they normally would as they're holding back. It's got fuck all to do with VAR, it's the new 'let play continue' rule or have you not seen this in action? That means play is allowed to continue and goals are sometimes being scored but then ruled out due to being offside by a mm. Last season the lineman may have flagged and stopped play before the ball got anywhere near the goal and I gave the Shelvey goal as an example.
I accept this VAR offside method is certainly not precise but it's the best they can do with the tech they have yet you're blabbing on about calibration certificates/GPS. They might as well do away with the real thing and just use virtual reality and have the players play of FIFA20 if you want to be that precise
VAR first select the frame they think the ball is 1st touched using multiple view cameras. It won't be the exact moment but it will be the first they think it's touched. VAR then selects both players positions across the pitch and also selects the point of the body they think is the nearest to the goal to make the various lines. It's still guesswork but it's as close to the answer as you'd get with what they have.
You're talking of adding a margin of error, so how do you think it should work? There is actually quite a large margin of error if you look at how fast players can run. (you're a mathematician aren't you?)
Fastest Soccer Players in History
Do you think you could ever run a 22.9 mile per hour sprint? From Bale to Messi, these are the fastest soccer players in history.
vocal.media
That links reckons Gareth Bale ran as 22.9mph so he travels just over 10 metres per second. Over 30 video frames per second that means he's moving 33cm per frame. A defender who can run like Bale running directly the opposite way is also going 33cm per frame. So that's a crossover of 66cm per frame of video. Realistically for attackers/defenders running as fast as they normally do, I'd say most extreme situations would be closer to 50cm as not all attackers/defenders will run at 23mph directly against each other. 2 players both moving at just 10mph will move 30cm between a 30FPS frame of video.
So there's no denying there's still some distance that can't be covered by VAR with this freeze frame thing. I've just shown that theoretically it could be over 60cm (2 feet) so should something this big be the margin of error? What if players are standing still such as a free kick, do you still allow the margin of error that was calculated using the speed of players?
It can't happen as it would be open to interpretation and that is a problem that has been around for years. See below as to why I think you can't have a margin of error or have the officials call for a review.
If managers and players are moaning about it now then they'll moan even more (and fans) when it's left to the onfield officials to decide if it's too close and call for VAR but they don't and the player is 1 yard onside. Those 2 you say this weekend would then be reviewed anyway so they ref would call for them to be reviewed so surely it would still cause the same moaning and arguments?
The problem some aren't grasping is that when does it become obvious? If you say things like "you can see daylight between them", "if you can't tell in 1 quick replay" etc etc then people will still be pissed off about the decision. That's because it has happened for years since TV replays started as people still see things differently. The one freeze frame and shitty click a pixel on a player's armpit is about as precise as you're going to get. All of the suggestions so far simply open up a larger field of opinion and therefore an bigger debate and bigger controversial decisions when a winning goal is disallowed yet the player was actually onside if they'd use the freeze frame/click a pixel method.
What is obvious though? Who decides and do you honestly think that managers, players and fans will agree with all the reviewed decisions? It will be like going back to the days of linesman making the call but it will be even worse as someone will actually review it and possibly still go against what some will think the decision should be. There will be even more uproar when something isn't reviewed or is/isn't corrected when most see it the opposite way. At least previously the linesman had an 'excuse' as he's got 1 unique view in real time that everyone accepts is impossible to get correct and the linesman sometimes makes assumptions based of their experience of running the line.
I think they should just do away with it as no matter what they do to get the correct decisions won't please everyone. We should all just accept humans make mistakes (though obviously some will think it's also biased decisions).
That's my final and brief post of the year
all the best lads n lasses and enjoy the New Year!
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TravellingMackem
Winger
TravellingMackem
Winger
What's a load of crap?
Read my post again, there are less offsides this season as in the linesman isn't flagging as much as they normally would as they're holding back. It's got fuck all to do with VAR, it's the new 'let play continue' rule or have you not seen this in action? That means play is allowed to continue and goals are sometimes being scored but then ruled out due to being offside by a mm. Last season the lineman may have flagged and stopped play before the ball got anywhere near the goal and I gave the Shelvey goal as an example.
I accept this VAR offside method is certainly not precise but it's the best they can do with the tech they have yet you're blabbing on about calibration certificates/GPS. They might as well do away with the real thing and just use virtual reality and have the players play of FIFA20 if you want to be that precise
VAR first select the frame they think the ball is 1st touched using multiple view cameras. It won't be the exact moment but it will be the first they think it's touched. VAR then selects both players positions across the pitch and also selects the point of the body they think is the nearest to the goal to make the various lines. It's still guesswork but it's as close to the answer as you'd get with what they have.
You're talking of adding a margin of error, so how do you think it should work? There is actually quite a large margin of error if you look at how fast players can run. (you're a mathematician aren't you?)
Fastest Soccer Players in History
Do you think you could ever run a 22.9 mile per hour sprint? From Bale to Messi, these are the fastest soccer players in history.
That links reckons Gareth Bale ran as 22.9mph so he travels just over 10 metres per second. Over 30 video frames per second that means he's moving 33cm per frame. A defender who can run like Bale running directly the opposite way is also going 33cm per frame. So that's a crossover of 66cm per frame of video. Realistically for attackers/defenders running as fast as they normally do, I'd say most extreme situations would be closer to 50cm as not all attackers/defenders will run at 23mph directly against each other. 2 players both moving at just 10mph will move 30cm between a 30FPS frame of video.
So there's no denying there's still some distance that can't be covered by VAR with this freeze frame thing. I've just shown that theoretically it could be over 60cm (2 feet) so should something this big be the margin of error? What if players are standing still such as a free kick, do you still allow the margin of error that was calculated using the speed of players?
It can't happen as it would be open to interpretation and that is a problem that has been around for years. See below as to why I think you can't have a margin of error or have the officials call for a review.
If managers and players are moaning about it now then they'll moan even more (and fans) when it's left to the onfield officials to decide if it's too close and call for VAR but they don't and the player is 1 yard onside. Those 2 you say this weekend would then be reviewed anyway so they ref would call for them to be reviewed so surely it would still cause the same moaning and arguments?
The problem some aren't grasping is that when does it become obvious? If you say things like "you can see daylight between them", "if you can't tell in 1 quick replay" etc etc then people will still be pissed off about the decision. That's because it has happened for years since TV replays started as people still see things differently. The one freeze frame and shitty click a pixel on a player's armpit is about as precise as you're going to get. All of the suggestions so far simply open up a larger field of opinion and therefore an bigger debate and bigger controversial decisions when a winning goal is disallowed yet the player was actually onside if they'd use the freeze frame/click a pixel method.
What is obvious though? Who decides and do you honestly think that managers, players and fans will agree with all the reviewed decisions? It will be like going back to the days of linesman making the call but it will be even worse as someone will actually review it and possibly still go against what some will think the decision should be. There will be even more uproar when something isn't reviewed or is/isn't corrected when most see it the opposite way. At least previously the linesman had an 'excuse' as he's got 1 unique view in real time that everyone accepts is impossible to get correct and the linesman sometimes makes assumptions based of their experience of running the line.
I think they should just do away with it as no matter what they do to get the correct decisions won't please everyone. We should all just accept humans make mistakes (though obviously some will think it's also biased decisions).
That's my final and brief post of the year
you’ll find that I posted that exact analysis on this forum in the summer. Mathematical error analysis can easily determine what the margin of error should be based on all of the factors to give a confidence interval of something that is certain enough to overturn a decision - 95% is generally industry standard for this kind of thing. It’s hard to calculate what all of this is without seeing calibration certificates and things for the cameras, but the FPS on the TV differs from that on the cameras, otherwise you’d see Bale jumping down the wing 30cm at a time. There is also an integrated FPS to consider which subdivides these frame gaps to produce a flat image on a non-static tv. I’d postulate that it would be possible to use other techniques to lower the error down from the 2 feet orso that you demonstrated, but if that is the calculated error band then yes that should be used as the margin of error to be used. VAR should be based on a principle of proving the referee wrong, which it started out doing in the World Cup with the clear and obvious mantra, but has since drifted away from that wildly.
The purpose of my analysis in the summer was to show how stupid it was to call offsides in such a manner and my preference would be to do away with the offside thing altogether, but that isn’t likely, so if we are stuck with it they could at least make it accurate to a Reasonable level
bernardbresslaw
Striker
That has always been the issue for me - the offside arguments don't really interest me now. I read the other day that a player has said he doesn't celebrate goals anymore because he doesn't want to look like a tit if it's then chalked off by VAR (and some of the delays have been ridiculous). If you look back at the beginning of this thread people were saying it wouldn't effect the crowd celebrations - I think it is now as more and more teams are being stung (I did say it would take a while). I don't care how much they quicken up VAR - I hate it and it's killing football.
And nice one for coming on and admitting you've changed your mind.
It's worrying how many people are saying this. And no-one ever said shit refs decisions were destroying football - they just really pissed you off for a bit.
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Hep
Striker
What do you want for an offside rule?
he’s either on or off one way or another.
Var just making us get it right.
shall we just toss a coin instead
Yeah, saw an interview with Scott Parker today saying the same. I thought at one point they should just use VAR for offsides with it being a definitive situation but even that’s causing massive controversy. I’ve been surprised how quickly it’s took players to stop celebrating even with clear good goals and it will be inevitable fans will follow suit and at that point the game is pointless. And it was through gritted teeth mateThat has always been the issue for me - the offside arguments don't really interest me now. I read the other day that a player has said he doesn't celebrate goals anymore because he doesn't want to look like a tit if it's then chalked off by VAR (and some of the delays have been ridiculous). If you look back at the beginning of this thread people were saying it wouldn't effect the crowd celebrations - I think it is now as more and more teams are being stung (I did say it would take a while). I don't care how much they quicken up VAR - I hate it and it's killing football.
And nice one for coming on and admitting you've changed your mind.
It's worrying how many people are saying this. And no-one ever said shit refs decisions were destroying football - they just really pissed you off for a bit.
Mark E Smith
Striker
TravellingMackem
Winger
As I’ve stated and shown several times VAR is not helping get it right at all. It’s creating doubt around an arbitrary freeze frame. There are multiple reasons that mean you cannot know whether Pukki was on or offside, for instance.
The technology does NOT show offside at all, contrary to Skys propaganda campaign. Only thing it does do is allow the PL a say in who wins matches.
precisely.
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nowtgoodeverhappens
Striker
Best thread title of the year, well done BB. Thread will run forever while this nonsense persists!
billyboy
Winger
Before VAR we've seen replays of where a player has been yards offside and the goal has been incorrectly given (not many I must admit) but these are theclear and obvious errors VAR was meant to eradicate. It was not meant to go completely the other way and say the players nose or little finger was in front of the last defender. That cannot be construed as the attacker gaining an unfair advantage which was what the offside rule was introduced for originally.
hank williams
Striker
Trust our league to have the biggest cock ups
I've seen some howlers in other leagues but can't recall offsides been an issue unlike in our league
uk.sports.yahoo.com
I've seen some howlers in other leagues but can't recall offsides been an issue unlike in our league
Premier League is using VAR wrong for offside reviews, suggests Ifab general secretary
Football’s law-makers have suggested that the Premier League are not using the Video Assistant Referee (VAR) system correctly by reiterating that it should only be used to correct “clear and obvious” errors, and should not be relied upon to try and pinpoint marginal offside calls that require...
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AC Mack
Striker
So what do you suggest?
By the way, offside is supposedly black and white, and not relevant to the 'clear and obvious' debate.
billyboy
Winger
The offside rule has always been difficult to apply and is open to interpretation. One possible remedy is to drop the rule altogether.
Vicham
Midfield
No, it's not black and white
Premier League is using VAR wrong for offside reviews, suggests Ifab
Lukas Brud has insisted the use of the Video Assistant Referee should be reserved for ‘clear and obvious’ errors and not numerous replays for marginal decisions
www.independent.co.uk
tooliohelmet
Striker
We keep hearing that the officials use thinner lines than we see. How about changing that so that they use lines the equivalent of 20cm wide, that’s the quoted margin for error with frames etc. Then if they can’t decide from that then the on field decision stands.
AC Mack
Striker
No, it's not black and white
Premier League is using VAR wrong for offside reviews, suggests Ifab
Lukas Brud has insisted the use of the Video Assistant Referee should be reserved for ‘clear and obvious’ errors and not numerous replays for marginal decisions
You're either offside or onside.
