Vaux site

[Brett]

In that first pic, is that what looks like roof top gardens above the bridges?
Is that part of the plans or just artistic licence?

I've registered for the event so will let you know after

 

[Stubbs ftm]

I don't think the top of Primark currently looks like that, but looking at all the new buildings it does look like some sort of future green plans to grow stuff on the roofs

Owts better than them currently being covered in pigeon and seagull shite

 

[the boot]

Buzzwords galore.

 

[Brett]

I went to one of the workshops and walked away feeling very optimistic , the people involved have some great ideas but were also really interested in what people of Sunderland thought. It was just a shame the workshops were not that well attended.

Looking forward to seeing the final vision

 

[citybythesea]

There should some landmark buildings. Everything is low rise and boxy. I’m not sure they’ll age well.

 

[Osklen]

There should some landmark buildings. Everything is low rise and boxy. I’m not sure they’ll age well.

I think if there is demand for a high rise ie there is a specific tenant enquiry or if they can get residential to stack up (unlikely when looking at likes of echo 24) they’ll deliver one. The issue is that no developer would risk creating too much office accommodation prior to Covid-19 nevermind now.

most high rise these days are for residential development for rent level in Sunderland / city centre and capital cost to build a high rise building makes it difficult to stack up. Alternative would be to deliver social housing similar to what is already in the city centre.

 

[Shandy drinker]

I went to one of the workshops and walked away feeling very optimistic , the people involved have some great ideas but were also really interested in what people of Sunderland thought. It was just a shame the workshops were not that well attended.

Looking forward to seeing the final vision

workshops like consultation = waste of time as a box ticking exercise. like to give the impression they are engaging with the public but anyone who dares to discuss challenge or dispute the proposals is dismissed and treat like something thats just come in on the bottom of someones shoe

 

[James]

workshops like consultation = waste of time as a box ticking exercise. like to give the impression they are engaging with the public but anyone who dares to discuss challenge or dispute the proposals is dismissed and treat like something thats just come in on the bottom of someones shoe

Often true but not always, it depends how early in the process they're engaging and how well fleshed out the designs are.

 

[Osklen]

workshops like consultation = waste of time as a box ticking exercise. like to give the impression they are engaging with the public but anyone who dares to discuss challenge or dispute the proposals is dismissed and treat like something thats just come in on the bottom of someones shoe

also depends if your opinion is consistent with others. Often people think their opinion is consistent with many others however it’s not always the case. The process is meant to get people’s views and for the design team to test or challenge those opinions as often they are not founded in fact or viability. Where they are it’s how they can design round these issues or buidl them in. I’ve been involved in many and often people choose any argument to make the development not go ahead and often those who turn up are those who don’t want it to happen.

 

[bobster999]

The post from Sunderland, UK about maintaining the trees along at Mary's way has attracted the loons this morning. People complaining about the trees not being asked to live in a concrete jungle and looking sickly and someone else complaining they can't see the view of the coast now because of the buildings, even though it's impossible to see from there anyway

 

[citybythesea]

I think if there is demand for a high rise ie there is a specific tenant enquiry or if they can get residential to stack up (unlikely when looking at likes of echo 24) they’ll deliver one. The issue is that no developer would risk creating too much office accommodation prior to Covid-19 nevermind now.

most high rise these days are for residential development for rent level in Sunderland / city centre and capital cost to build a high rise building makes it difficult to stack up. Alternative would be to deliver social housing similar to what is already in the city centre.

I get that, but ultimately space is limited to make the biggest impact for development of the city centre. the opportunity cost of losing the land is huge, once the land is made for housing you lose the opportunity for say a leisure development. Stacking housing or offices upwards saves the land for other uses, which will be a once in a generation to get right. Quite rightly the Vaux site is being used for mixed use rather say a supermarket. If you look along the riverside to st.peters the housing along there has ultimately landlocked other developments taking place.
I think given there’s been over two decades since the Vaux site closed people have been desperate for progress, but I think it’s a golden opportunity lost not to try something landmark.....something ambitious.
Case in point, where is the logic of putting two basic footbridges next to each other? Is it buy-one-get-one-free? Look at what Stockton upon tees have done with the infinity bridge, this is what we should be aspiring to.

 

[bobster999]

Join us to hear about the Riverside Sunderland masterplan, how it has been shaped by the people of Sunderland and what happens next.
About this Event
Riverside Sunderland is a new urban quarter in the heart of the city. Sunderland City Council is proud to publish the Riverside Sunderland masterplan, which sets out exciting proposals for new homes, workspace, civic and cultural buildings, parks and open spaces.

This is Riverside Sunderland - online presentation

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I'm all for redevelopment and updating but a park and basketball court on Primarks roof? They've also narrowed St Marys Way which they've spent a fortune to just update.

 

[Osklen]

I get that, but ultimately space is limited to make the biggest impact for development of the city centre. the opportunity cost of losing the land is huge, once the land is made for housing you lose the opportunity for say a leisure development. Stacking housing or offices upwards saves the land for other uses, which will be a once in a generation to get right. Quite rightly the Vaux site is being used for mixed use rather say a supermarket. If you look along the riverside to st.peters the housing along there has ultimately landlocked other developments taking place.
I think given there’s been over two decades since the Vaux site closed people have been desperate for progress, but I think it’s a golden opportunity lost not to try something landmark.....something ambitious.
Case in point, where is the logic of putting two basic footbridges next to each other? Is it buy-one-get-one-free? Look at what Stockton upon tees have done with the infinity bridge, this is what we should be aspiring to.

but the ambition you are wanting effectively means the council or someone subsidising the development. Furthermore for an office scheme it could risk bringing to the market too much space thus pushing rental levels down further compounding the viability.

I totally understand the opportunity cost lost but it’s only opportunity cost if there is viable projects to deliver in the first place. It would be great for there to be people fighting over each other to come into Sunderland but there isn't
Sadly. Take Newcastle the only high rise development there is for Resi (In the main). The latest high rise development at pilgrim st is to house predominantly a civil service letting I believe and certainly not a spec office.

in Sunderland there is significant Development space meaning there isn’t a need to go higher as it’s drive up cost significantly, and ultimately rent/purchase costs. Perhaps in time if Riverside Sunderland is developed as well as other sites then high rise may be an option due to availability of land. Sure when high rise becomes viable there will be any amount of buildings that could be bought and replaced, but at the moment I just can’t see it. PRS is the only hope but even that has only recently become viable in the last couple of year.

as for the bridges presumably it’s to activate the park and lower level much like Newcastle and Gateshead quayside. If I’m honest I doubt they’ll deliver two In tandem unless it’s cost effective to do so.

 

[citybythesea]

but the ambition you are wanting effectively means the council or someone subsidising the development. Furthermore for an office scheme it could risk bringing to the market too much space thus pushing rental levels down further compounding the viability.

I totally understand the opportunity cost lost but it’s only opportunity cost if there is viable projects to deliver in the first place. It would be great for there to be people fighting over each other to come into Sunderland but there isn't
Sadly. Take Newcastle the only high rise development there is for Resi (In the main). The latest high rise development at pilgrim st is to house predominantly a civil service letting I believe and certainly not a spec office.

in Sunderland there is significant Development space meaning there isn’t a need to go higher as it’s drive up cost significantly, and ultimately rent/purchase costs. Perhaps in time if Riverside Sunderland is developed as well as other sites then high rise may be an option due to availability of land. Sure when high rise becomes viable there will be any amount of buildings that could be bought and replaced, but at the moment I just can’t see it. PRS is the only hope but even that has only recently become viable in the last couple of year.

as for the bridges presumably it’s to activate the park and lower level much like Newcastle and Gateshead quayside. If I’m honest I doubt they’ll deliver two In tandem unless it’s cost effective to do so.

Ok but where there is a company willing to invest in office accommodation (L&G) they’re speculating on two Separate office buildings on a larger footprint, why not save 50% of the land and incorporate both buildings in one? There plenty of examples of multiple occupants complexes.
But I’m on about preserving the land TILL the best offers come along rather than filling much of a muchness. I think it’s important after all this time some thought goes into it.

 

[Boris Bear]

Ok but where there is a company willing to invest in office accommodation (L&G) they’re speculating on two Separate office buildings on a larger footprint, why not save 50% of the land and incorporate both buildings in one? There plenty of examples of multiple occupants complexes.
But I’m on about preserving the land TILL the best offers come along rather than filling much of a muchness. I think it’s important after all this time some thought goes into it.

Because there is an over-supply of cheap land and the business model is to get tenants into a lease agreement and then sell the building on. Selling two tenanted buildings is easier than selling one that is only partly occupied.

 

[citybythesea]

Suppose what it ultimately comes down to is the direction the city centre is heading in.
Sunderland isn’t part of the “north east capital” on the Tyne so it needs to become an independent competitor on its own

 

[Osklen]

Ok but where there is a company willing to invest in office accommodation (L&G) they’re speculating on two Separate office buildings on a larger footprint, why not save 50% of the land and incorporate both buildings in one? There plenty of examples of multiple occupants complexes.
But I’m on about preserving the land TILL the best offers come along rather than filling much of a muchness. I think it’s important after all this time some thought goes into it.

suspect L&G will build them in phases to limit their exposure and to try and dive rents up. Pensions funds are massively risk averse so they’d be reluctant to do high rise in a market place that is untested. If they delivered all of the floor space in one go and couldn’t let it this may drive rent down as they’d be desperate to let it, similar to residential development a whereby they build houses in batches of 5 or so at a time.

I agree multi occupancy blocks can work but my point is that high rise resi isn’t viable and office rents arent high enough to assist at this time. Suspect grade a office isn’t viable to be delivered and hence why a lease wrap has been done on council offices with L&G. Overtime this may change and as I’ve said once Vaux site is developed out it would be as easy to redevelop say Holmeside, park lane or Branford street for high rise development at that time.

I agree iconic design would be beneficial but this can be delivered on a building below 10 stories still, albeit at a cost.

Suppose what it ultimately comes down to is the direction the city centre is heading in.
Sunderland isn’t part of the “north east capital” on the Tyne so it needs to become an independent competitor on its own

ideally this would be the case but only way I foresee that is if it can somehow become really sustainable Development, to try and get businesses to move to ethical development. It’s a push but purely marginally cheaper rents off the beaten track might just not be enough.

 

[citybythesea]

suspect L&G will build them in phases to limit their exposure and to try and dive rents up. Pensions funds are massively risk averse so they’d be reluctant to do high rise in a market place that is untested. If they delivered all of the floor space in one go and couldn’t let it this may drive rent down as they’d be desperate to let it, similar to residential development a whereby they build houses in batches of 5 or so at a time.

I agree multi occupancy blocks can work but my point is that high rise resi isn’t viable and office rents arent high enough to assist at this time. Suspect grade a office isn’t viable to be delivered and hence why a lease wrap has been done on council offices with L&G. Overtime this may change and as I’ve said once Vaux site is developed out it would be as easy to redevelop say Holmeside, park lane or Branford street for high rise development at that time.

I agree iconic design would be beneficial but this can be delivered on a building below 10 stories still, albeit at a cost.


ideally this would be the case but only way I foresee that is if it can somehow become really sustainable Development, to try and get businesses to move to ethical development. It’s a push but purely marginally cheaper rents off the beaten track might just not be enough.

The whole concept of Sunderland as a place of business needs to change. The fact you describe the place as “off the beaten track” speaks volumes. From a PR point of view you’d never describe a place like this if you wanted to promote the place. Something like “good transport links to road rail and air “would be more fitting

 

[Osklen]

The whole concept of Sunderland as a place of business needs to change. The fact you describe the place as “off the beaten track” speaks volumes. From a PR point of view you’d never describe a place like this if you wanted to promote the place. Something like “good transport links to road rail and air “would be more fitting

I’ not trying to sell Sunderland In my post though it’s just a perception that I would suspect most outside of the north east would have, I may wrong. I totally agree it needs to be promoted correctly, however you can’t get away from the fact it’s not on a mainline station nor does it have an airport. In fairness every site worth it’s salt will sell how close they are to various transport nodes these things including journey time to London. I’m sure they do this already. The main issue is why choose Sunderland over Newcastle or other competing locations?

 

[citybythesea]

I’ not trying to sell Sunderland In my post though it’s just a perception that I would suspect most outside of the north east would have, I may wrong. I totally agree it needs to be promoted correctly, however you can’t get away from the fact it’s not on a mainline station nor does it have an airport. In fairness every site worth it’s salt will sell how close they are to various transport nodes these things including journey time to London. I’m sure they do this already. The main issue is why choose Sunderland over Newcastle or other competing locations?

I don’t get why Newcastle has to be the yardstick of success for Sunderland. The latter needs to do its own thing and develop its infrastructure accordingly. The former is clearly the economic centre for the Tyneside area......obviously Manchester is the capital of the north overall