This obsession with 2 holding midfielders🤷‍♂️

parsonjohn1985 said:
What a ridiculous thing to say.

Schwarz occupied the same position on the pitch as McGeady. One is defensive, one isnt. Rashford occupied the same position last night as Kane. Theyre not both strikers. England issues is we play two defensive midfielders. Its arguable france do as well. The others absolutely do not. If England played Grealish and Mount around Rice noone would be saying they were playing two defensive midfielders
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You've just argued my point.
 


Mansfield Mackem said:
Only England can do this. Embarrassing playing 2 defensive midfielders in any competition let’s go for it
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WASTID said:
The reaction to the performance of Phillips and England against Croatia was way over the top.

You'd have thought we'd totally dominated a game against one of the best sides in World Football from the pundits reaction.
It was slow, boring and negative football which was why very few chances were created.

Performance against Scotland was a carbon copy but didn't get the one moment of creativity to gloss over it.

England could well bore there way through the tournament of course and Southgate will be heralded as a genius.
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It was a good comfortable win against the World Cup finalists where Phillips was comfortably the best player on the pitch. No overreaction that’s exactly the way it was and agreed by every balanced observer of the match. We were poor yesterday no wuestion but it is possible to play well and be justifiably praised and pkay poorly and be justifiably criticised.
 
WASTID said:
The reaction to the performance of Phillips and England against Croatia was way over the top.

You'd have thought we'd totally dominated a game against one of the best sides in World Football from the pundits reaction.
It was slow, boring and negative football which was why very few chances were created.

Performance against Scotland was a carbon copy but didn't get the one moment of creativity to gloss over it.

England could well bore there way through the tournament of course and Southgate will be heralded as a genius.
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Spot on, that header was an inch to the left and we'd be world beaters
 
Pilly said:
That’s nonsense. France the bookies favourites play 2 defensive midfielders. As do Italy, Belgium, Nederland’s, Portugal.
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Kante and Pogba? They both support in attacks. Which is what Rice should have been doing. Literally most of his play involved him receiving a 5-10 yard pass from a defender and then passing it back to another defender. It was absolutely pointless his role last night. Defenders were passing to him just for the sake of it.
 
How is Henderson not getting a game in front of them in central midfield?

The England midfield last night was like watching Sunderland in recent years. Two central midfielders who didnt create or support the forward players and didnt really help the defence either.
 
Southgate, Jack Ross, Phil Parkinson and Lee Johnson are all about the same age and all probably did their coaching badges at approximately the same time. They all lack spontaneity and believe in a well drilled midfield with two holding players. It can work brilliantly if you have a Kante or an Iniesta coupled with dynamic forwards. But not if you have the likes of Grigg, O'Brien or a desperately out of sorts Kane.
He was more worried about losing this game than winning it. A draw against Czech Republic will get him through and then he can maybe be more expressive. I thought the Scotland performance was the kind of show that a Dick Advocaat or Sam Allardyce team might put on. They must have left John Carver out of the coaching sessions for this game.
 
bigfatpete said:
Southgate, Jack Ross, Phil Parkinson and Lee Johnson are all about the same age and all probably did their coaching badges at approximately the same time. They all lack spontaneity and believe in a well drilled midfield with two holding players. It can work brilliantly if you have a Kante or an Iniesta coupled with dynamic forwards. But not if you have the likes of Grigg, O'Brien or a desperately out of sorts Kane.
He was more worried about losing this game than winning it. A draw against Czech Republic will get him through and then he can maybe be more expressive. I thought the Scotland performance was the kind of show that a Dick Advocaat or Sam Allardyce team might put on. They must have left John Carver out of the coaching sessions for this game.
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Good defensive midfielders still have the ability to support in attacks. Lazy, risk averse ones are happy to take it easy, sitting in front of the defence trying to maintain their high pass completion rate.
 
Given the abundance of attacking options we have at our disposal it’s a crying shame to have two deep sitting holding midfielders.

I think we need 4-1-4-1 or even 4-1-3-2.
 
Hulkster said:
It's pretty laughable to try to say an midfield of Rice, Phillips and Mount is just as attack minded as Kante, Rabiot and Pogba and some of the others listed.

England should use Mount as a a conventional central midfielder. His work rate is higher than anyone's, he can win the ball, but when he gets is he is more dynamic, more positive and can pick a pass. He's pretty much the all round complete central midfielder, but I don't think he offers enough threat to be the number 10 or even just be the attacking one out of a midfield three.

Play Mount and Phillips/Henderson as your midfield two then Grealish or Foden as your number 10. Or depending on how you want to describe it simply a midfield three of Henderson/Mount/Foden.
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Either play Mount as one of the Phillips/Rice positions, or just play Bellingham, who is better than Phillips anyway.
 
Northumberland Rocks said:
How is Henderson not getting a game in front of them in central midfield?

The England midfield last night was like watching Sunderland in recent years. Two central midfielders who didnt create or support the forward players and didnt really help the defence either.
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Said the same last night. Hendersons energy was sorely missing. He's still our best cm no matter what people think.
 
Yesterday's (Saturday) showed teams that attack and take risks can upset the big boys... In the WC England played that sort of football, but so far in this tournament we've gone back to caution and it concerns me. The fear of failure is likely to drag us down and out - we've got the best and most creative England players in decades and we need to let them play and express themselves. I'd rather go down in a thrilling match than limp out after a negative game.
 
Pilly said:
That’s nonsense. France the bookies favourites play 2 defensive midfielders. As do Italy, Belgium, Nederland’s, Portugal.
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Lost on most of the FIFA players who make the most noise about this.

Tyrone Mings is in our back 4. We need to screen in front of him.
 
Personally I d sack off 4231. Go 433. Drop mount and Grealish in with Rice or Phillips as your midfield 3. Play Kane plus 2 from Sancho, Rashford, Sterling, Foden. Gives us creativity and some pace upfront with Kane. I just dont like 4231. CF gets isolated, has to drop deep like Kane is. The attacking 3 all hang around the edge of the box so there’s not many options in the box for crosses. It creates very little. 433, Kane can drop deep like he does at Spurs and we will still have bodies in advanced positions. I like Southgate, but he has all this attack talent at his disposal and for me he’s way too cautious. 4231 should see us qualify, but overall we’ve created nothing. Sticks with that and IMO we are out next round.
 
DPTT said:
Is going to end our tournament very early
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It won’t like. It’s totally unnecessary against shite like Scotland, but if we play against Germany, France, or Portugal in the knock out phases then it’s probably out best strategy. And let’s be honest we are already through our group.

It could even be argued that it’s our best strategy against Czech Republic as a draw means that we avoid the runner up in the group of death, and we look a bit less likely to win by playing with defensive mids.

It’s just frustrating that Southgate doesn’t seem to have any other plan though and it’s a bit shit to watch.

For me we should have played a 3 man midfield of Foden, Mount and either Philips or Rice against Scotland, and then played Sterling and Grelish behind Kane.
I also prefer Chilwell at left back as I feel he adds more to the attack than Shaw.
 
KGC83 said:
As much as Phillips was excellent on Sunday his first thought every time tonight was pass backwards.
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It’s hard to pass forward if you have 9 other players behind the ball and 1 forward ahead of you
Think it’s time to go for pace out wide in rashford and sancho and play graelish on between them
 
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BucketBiff said:
Personally I d sack off 4231. Go 433. Drop mount and Grealish in with Rice or Phillips as your midfield 3. Play Kane plus 2 from Sancho, Rashford, Sterling, Foden. Gives us creativity and some pace upfront with Kane. I just dont like 4231. CF gets isolated, has to drop deep like Kane is. The attacking 3 all hang around the edge of the box so there’s not many options in the box for crosses. It creates very little. 433, Kane can drop deep like he does at Spurs and we will still have bodies in advanced positions. I like Southgate, but he has all this attack talent at his disposal and for me he’s way too cautious. 4231 should see us qualify, but overall we’ve created nothing. Sticks with that and IMO we are out next round.
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Neither Grealish or Mount are central midfielders though. Mount sometimes played there under Lampard but was written off as Lampard's pet, Tuchel has always played him as one of the two off the striker and he's been excellent. Grealish definitely isn't a central midfielder, what use is he getting hacked down nearer the centre circle? Need him as high up the pitch and wide as possible running at full backs. Iirc I think Villa played him as the central 'number 10' when they first got promoted and he looked a bit lost, then exploded once they moved him wide?

Kind of agree about 433/4231 though. With Kane dropping deep it just seems a bit congested in that area just outside the box. Foden and Sterling cut inside, Kane drops deep and with Mount there you've got 4 players in the same area but no-one breaking into the box and no-one stretching the defence. Sterling has done it a few times and got his feet muddled up (plus obviously the goal). I can't believe we haven't seen Sancho at all. Personally I'd play Bellingham over Rice in midfield for starters.
 
Definitely Maybe said:
Neither Grealish or Mount are central midfielders though. Mount sometimes played there under Lampard but was written off as Lampard's pet, Tuchel has always played him as one of the two off the striker and he's been excellent. Grealish definitely isn't a central midfielder, what use is he getting hacked down nearer the centre circle? Need him as high up the pitch and wide as possible running at full backs. Iirc I think Villa played him as the central 'number 10' when they first got promoted and he looked a bit lost, then exploded once they moved him wide?

Kind of agree about 433/4231 though. With Kane dropping deep it just seems a bit congested in that area just outside the box. Foden and Sterling cut inside, Kane drops deep and with Mount there you've got 4 players in the same area but no-one breaking into the box and no-one stretching the defence. Sterling has done it a few times and got his feet muddled up (plus obviously the goal). I can't believe we haven't seen Sancho at all. Personally I'd play Bellingham over Rice in midfield for starters.
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That's exactly why it's congested. We've got 4 players competing against themselves to take the same half spaces and Southgate won't allow the fullbacks forward to create the width and pull the opponents out for those central players.

Depth of aftacking talent we have and he' s got them all playing in the same space and trying to knock balls owa the top.
 

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