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The Pep myth

Laidback Jack said:
They scored less than Real despite having nearly double the chances. Unless you play tight football the games are more likely to be open (few teams do it at the top Atleti aside) it's always gunna be a case of taking chances. City didn't tonight.

Grealish puts either of his away, Foden header... there you go.

They were also naive as a team mind. When Real scored the first, they had momentum in the game and the crowd was up. City gifted them the ball straight back. They should have slowed the game right down and used a bit from the Simeone textbook
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Fair point.This might be a time to bring up xG and look at that but I can't be arsed. I know Benzema has around double the number of his goals vs xG but I can't be chewed checking both sides over the season in CL. You are probably right
 

What A Waster said:
Why do you think that?
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Klopp took over a Dortmund side that had finished 13th and 9th in the 2 seasons prior to his arrival. He took them to 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd and 2nd over the next 6 seasons, all on a budget made out of players he developed, sold and replaced within strict budgets.

He also took them to a domestic double and a CL final, and signed some fantastic talent for peanuts.

The wheels came off in his final year there to be honest and I think they ended up about 7th.

He then went to Liverpool and had a very unremarkable start. However, they finished 6th the season before he took over. But he's - over a few seasons - turned them into genuine title challengers every year, won a title with record points (Liverpool's first in a generation) and won the CL. He might still win both this season.

He's taken over clubs that weren't already sitting pretty, didn't have absolutely limitless funds, and turned them both into absolute machines, that challenged (and overthrew, at least for a little while) the more established, wealthier sides.

You can make a case for Guardiola of course as well, he's got a great CV and has impacted the style of football significantly. But, he's a manager who has walked into jobs where he everything imaginable at his disposal. He won the CL in his debut season at Barca, and since then he's won it once in 12 years and counting - with the richest team in Spain, Germany, and England. He's only even made the final once in over 10 years.
 
What A Waster said:
Guardioa and Klopp are the best two managers in the world.
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Are you forgetting Ancelotti who just knocked out the aforementioned Guardiola, as the underdog, and has won all 5 of the top 5 European leagues, with 3 champions leagues across two teams, into the final for a possible 4th?
Or is he just dismissed as not being on Pep/Klopp level.
 
mediaclee said:
Are you forgetting Ancelotti who just knocked out the aforementioned Guardiola, as the underdog, and has won all 5 of the top 5 European leagues, with 3 champions leagues across two teams, into the final for a possible 4th?
Or is he just dismissed as not being on Pep/Klopp level.
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If I could choose a manager for Sunderland out of klopp, pep or anchelotti, anchelotti would be 3rd choice.
 
sponge said:
If I could choose a manager for Sunderland out of klopp, pep or anchelotti, anchelotti would be 3rd choice.
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Likewise!

I personally think he’s in the same discussion (who’s the best manager in the world) though, and I was wondering if waster had forgotten him amidst a tense Klopp v Pep debate or whether CA had been dismissed as below that level
 
mediaclee said:
Likewise!

I personally think he’s in the same discussion (who’s the best manager in the world) though, and I was wondering if waster had forgotten him amidst a tense Klopp v Pep debate or whether CA had been dismissed as below that level
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Age really I think.
 
mediaclee said:
Are you forgetting Ancelotti who just knocked out the aforementioned Guardiola, as the underdog, and has won all 5 of the top 5 European leagues, with 3 champions leagues across two teams, into the final for a possible 4th?
Or is he just dismissed as not being on Pep/Klopp level.
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No I'm not forgetting him. He's just not in the conversation for me.
He's had a good season and he's an elite manager but he isn't a builder like Klopp or an influencer like Guardiola. He hasn't changed the culture like Klopp and Guardiola.
Ancelotti gets the best of what he's got. Not a bad thing. Not a criticism. He plays different depending on the players he's got. He's a very successful manager but he doesn't leave his legacy. Nobody tries to emulate the Ancelotti style because it doesn't exist. He's undeniably an excellent and versatile manager though. He's the man that Man United should have appointed. He makes a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

In summary, incredibly good but not in the top two. Will go down as an all time great.
 
mediaclee said:
Likewise!

I personally think he’s in the same discussion (who’s the best manager in the world) though, and I was wondering if waster had forgotten him amidst a tense Klopp v Pep debate or whether CA had been dismissed as below that level
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Ancelotti is great but seems to be a great short term manager over a long term appointment.
 
What A Waster said:
No I'm not forgetting him. He's just not in the conversation for me.
He's had a good season and he's an elite manager but he isn't a builder like Klopp or an influencer like Guardiola. He hasn't changed the culture like Klopp and Guardiola.
Ancelotti gets the best of what he's got. Not a bad thing. Not a criticism. He plays different depending on the players he's got. He's a very successful manager but he doesn't leave his legacy. Nobody tries to emulate the Ancelotti style because it doesn't exist. He's undeniably an excellent and versatile manager though. He's the man that Man United should have appointed. He makes a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

In summary, incredibly good but not in the top two. Will go down as an all time great.
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Hearing he’s won all 5 top European leagues sounded great on the tv earlier - Klopp and Pep would do the same though.
 
Ilios said:
Klopp took over a Dortmund side that had finished 13th and 9th in the 2 seasons prior to his arrival. He took them to 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd and 2nd over the next 6 seasons, all on a budget made out of players he developed, sold and replaced within strict budgets.

He also took them to a domestic double and a CL final, and signed some fantastic talent for peanuts.

The wheels came off in his final year there to be honest and I think they ended up about 7th.

He then went to Liverpool and had a very unremarkable start. However, they finished 6th the season before he took over. But he's - over a few seasons - turned them into genuine title challengers every year, won a title with record points (Liverpool's first in a generation) and won the CL. He might still win both this season.

He's taken over clubs that weren't already sitting pretty, didn't have absolutely limitless funds, and turned them both into absolute machines, that challenged (and overthrew, at least for a little while) the more established, wealthier sides.

You can make a case for Guardiola of course as well, he's got a great CV and has impacted the style of football significantly. But, he's a manager who has walked into jobs where he everything imaginable at his disposal. He won the CL in his debut season at Barca, and since then he's won it once in 12 years and counting - with the richest team in Spain, Germany, and England. He's only even made the final once in over 10 years.
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Yeah he's an all time great. No doubt. As I said in another post it's not either/or for me despite initially getting drawn into that Messi/Ronaldo debate cycle.

I really enjoy watching both their teams. I like both their personalities.
Both have their flaws.
They're both great managers.
mediaclee said:
Hearing he’s won all 5 top European leagues sounded great on the tv earlier - Klopp and Pep would do the same though.
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They probably would aye. Klopp on 2, Guardiola on 3.
Realistically in Italy they only go to one of the big 3.
Same as France only PSG could probably tempt them.
Might have to work a bit in Italy but France would be a tap in.
 
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What A Waster said:
Yeah he's an all time great. No doubt. As I said in another post it's not either/or for me despite initially getting drawn into that Messi/Ronaldo debate cycle.

I really enjoy watching both their teams. I like both their personalities.
Both have their flaws.
They're both great managers.
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You’re right!
Both fantastic managers that have been a privilege to watch their teams.
 
What A Waster said:
Man City without a world class centre forward scored 5 goals against Real Madrid over two legs.

Liverpool with arguably 1 world class centre forward scored 5 goals against Villareal over two legs.

City conceded 6. Liverpool conceded 2.

Without doubt city played against a stronger opponent.

Attacking isn't the problem for Man City.
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Liverpool finished the 2nd leg with no strikers in Diaz, Mane and Salah. Who is the centre forward you're speaking of? I get the impression you'll mean salah here and there's no way he's a typical centre forward. He's very much in the same mould as Mahrez.
 
mediaclee said:
Are you forgetting Ancelotti who just knocked out the aforementioned Guardiola, as the underdog, and has won all 5 of the top 5 European leagues, with 3 champions leagues across two teams, into the final for a possible 4th?
Or is he just dismissed as not being on Pep/Klopp level.
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Personally I’d say he’s above both
 
You have to say Pep time at City has been a failure. He was brought in to win the Champions League and hasn't. So far he has achieved what Mancini and Pellegrini have done.
For all the plaudits for their style of football, he has spent a load and wasted a load too. A recent example of this is Jack G v Diaz. Liverpool have by far a better player on their hands and done it spending £60 million less and wages will be much less that Jack G.

Liverpool have rumoured to sign carvalho from Fulham and also looking at Mason Mount.

City are rumoured to be signing Haaland which I think will be a game changer if he stays fit but at what cost? If Pep fails to win the Champions League next season with a forward rumoured to be on on £500k you would have to say as an owner, is he the right man

I have a feeling City will spend the cash again in the summer and Liverpool will be very clever in the market and look at value for money
 
Evester said:
You have to say Pep time at City has been a failure. He was brought in to win the Champions League and hasn't. So far he has achieved what Mancini and Pellegrini have done.
For all the plaudits for their style of football, he has spent a load and wasted a load too. A recent example of this is Jack G v Diaz. Liverpool have by far a better player on their hands and done it spending £60 million less and wages will be much less that Jack G.

Liverpool have rumoured to sign carvalho from Fulham and also looking at Mason Mount.

City are rumoured to be signing Haaland which I think will be a game changer if he stays fit but at what cost? If Pep fails to win the Champions League next season with a forward rumoured to be on on £500k you would have to say as an owner, is he the right man

I have a feeling City will spend the cash again in the summer and Liverpool will be very clever in the market and look at value for money
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Something will give on the Salah situation, wouldn't be surprised to see Liverpool stick to their guns and he leaves.
 
It's a great debate isn't it.

I've absolutely loved seeing the quality of football being played by Liverpool and Man City, and it all help to progress the other teams and national side(s) too which I'm all for.

For me though, it keeps coming down to the big moments and it seems Pep doesn't seem to be able to get his team over the line when it really matters.

Vs Villareal the other night, would Man City have been able to turn it around like Liverpool did, I'm not sure tbh.

Last night Vs Madrid, once the momentum changed and Madrid levelled the tie, Man City's football style just fell apart, with players like Grealish and Sterling not looking anything like as the top level match winners that you would be looking for when the chips are down. Is that recruitment, coaching, leadership - I'm not sure.

As for Ancelloti, his team has been bossed for three CL ties in a row and out of nowhere they have turned it around - I'm not sure whether that's genius management or simply having match winning players in your team (with a bit of help from the ref of course).
 
I think City are the third team Real have done this to this season. All 3 were the better team.

Not sure there is a myth about Pep, he is a quality manager. As is Klopp, with just a lesser resume. It’s arguable that each manager has what the other wants tbh.
 
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