Put a flat earthier into space

[legend7]

Oh dear, I think that is where the problem lies.

Mathematics is all about proof, proving one thing equals another. Some areas of science are 'to the best of our knowledge at this time' and theories are refined on as knowledge progresses, but maths is absolute. 2+2=4. That is not brainwashing, that is not subjective, it just is.

You then take it further than algebra and look at pi, Pythagoras and trigonometry - your basics of geometry built on the foundations laid by Euclid. Those are also absolute proven fact. You can calculate stuff on the small scale and measure it with a ruler for proof, and those rules form the basis on which all roads, buildings, massive ships etc are designed. Geometry just is, the modern world would not work if those rule were wrong.

However you apply the same geometric hard and fast rules to accurate observational evidence of the world and night sky and it all points to the same thing. And the key thing is it is all provable down to first principals. In the modern era, rather than sit with pen and paper, computers can do all the calculations for us and even render all that in 3D. You feed the observations and basic geometric rules into a simulator and the same things pop out. That is not perception or personal bias, it is just maths.

Quite frankly what you say is demeaning and insulting. You claim you don't insult people but there is evidence just there. "You regurgitate what is drilled in". No. Thousands upon thousands of people learn the provable basics from 2+2=4 upwards. It is called knowledge, learning and intelligence. People like myself are not sheep just repeating stuff, people actually take things back to the first principals and build from there. Nowt to do with curriculum and passing exams, that is way behind someone of my age, it is all about learning, personal interest and advancement of knowledge.

What I do find fascinating though is if you dismiss all the above as being provable, if you reject basic maths and geometry then what are you left with? At least with that you have a solid set of provable rules and equations that point to a globe earth. There is no physics or maths that backs up any other model, so people are left with a choice. Do you reject all mathematics and dismiss the globe, do you accept mathematics and the globe or do you go for something else where there is no maths to back it up? The second one is the only logical choice.

Cheers for that mate, saved me replying to him that a lot of our discoveries are based on mathematics which is pure and not guesswork.

 

[DaveH]

Cheers for that mate, saved me replying to him that a lot of our discoveries are based on mathematics which is pure and not guesswork.

A really nice example is that combining pi and trig there are well established equations for the length of an arc given the radius and the angle between two points on a circle/sphere cross-section.

On a globe (or circle edge), if you move 10 degrees around the surface then anything you are looking at (say a point on the ceiling when you have a small camera on a large ball) would appear 10 degrees lower. One of my scope mounts needs to align to polaris and hence measures the angle precisely. From my house and my mams I can confidently say that polaris is 3.6 degrees lower in the sky. Using actual coordinates, that says it should be 3.55 degrees, so that double checks my measurements. So if I've travelled 3.55 around the globe and I take a value for the radius of the earth then I should be able calculate how much further north my mams house is.

You must be logged on to see external links

Angle = 3.55
Radius in miles from many sources: 3958.756

Result, 245 miles due north. She is further east so an actual trip is longer, but this agrees with maps and roughly what my car odometer measures when I take the not-due-north route.

If the earth was not a globe or if the radius was not as above, this would not work.

Basically observational evidence plus basic mathematics fact points to not only a globe but the size of it. I'd love to see a flat earther be able to explain this and why maths shows it with such accurate precision. Of course what we all know will happen is that next time our resident CT gets to a computer there will be a screen full of text which will say many things but essentially be 'wibble'.

 

[Nukehasslefan]

Oh dear, I think that is where the problem lies.

Mathematics is all about proof, proving one thing equals another. Some areas of science are 'to the best of our knowledge at this time' and theories are refined on as knowledge progresses, but maths is absolute. 2+2=4. That is not brainwashing, that is not subjective, it just is.

I'm not arguing against mathematics. I'm not arguing against being educated. I'm simply saying we followed a curriculum like they do to this day.
That doesn't mean what is taught is wrong in all of that but there's a lot of it that it taught that has no basis for truth, which comes down to the big bang and all the rest of what's been and being argued.

You then take it further than algebra and look at pi, Pythagoras and trigonometry - your basics of geometry built on the foundations laid by Euclid. Those are also absolute proven fact. You can calculate stuff on the small scale and measure it with a ruler for proof, and those rules form the basis on which all roads, buildings, massive ships etc are designed. Geometry just is, the modern world would not work if those rule were wrong.

I have no issues with any of that. I accept that.
When it comes down to light year stars and all the rest of the so called space stuff, that's what I'm arguing.

However you apply the same geometric hard and fast rules to accurate observational evidence of the world and night sky and it all points to the same thing. And the key thing is it is all provable down to first principals.

But it isn't. It's absolutely not provable to anyone other than those who claim it to be yet cannot show any reality,
If you think they do then you're welcome to that thought.

In the modern era, rather than sit with pen and paper, computers can do all the calculations for us and even render all that in 3D. You feed the observations and basic geometric rules into a simulator and the same things pop out. That is not perception or personal bias, it is just maths.

What are you feeding into it?
You can set anything up to play out a scenario. It doesn't mean that scenario is based on reality, in terms of so called space and such like.

Quite frankly what you say is demeaning and insulting. You claim you don't insult people but there is evidence just there.

Somebody will always feel insulted by almost anything that goes against their grain. I get enough insults and you can argue it's deserved. I accept that and have no issue.
I don't intentionally insult people but I know what I say does not sit well with those who follow a set train of thought.

"You regurgitate what is drilled in". No.

We all do it in life with almost everything. Like I said about exams. Exams are to gauge what what placed into your memory by regurgitation, whether that's a theory of a practical exercise.
You can be told a story which may or may not be a true story and asked to do an exam on it. What do you gain?
You gain a certificate if you paid attention but not a lot more if the story was meaningless in terms of reality, except the ability to memorise and regurgitate.

Thousands upon thousands of people learn the provable basics from 2+2=4 upwards. It is called knowledge, learning and intelligence.

Absolutely and it can be used theoretically and practically in life. I have no issues with any of that.
My argument is not against that.

People like myself are not sheep just repeating stuff, people actually take things back to the first principals and build from there.

There's always somebody that will show something new aside from their natural training/schooling. If there's a reality to it then there's always aducation from that and because of that...and so on.
Basically we are all creatures of habit whether we like to think we aren't. We are memory mimics and also visual.

Nowt to do with curriculum and passing exams, that is way behind someone of my age, it is all about learning, personal interest and advancement of knowledge.

Advancement of knowledge by what means? Being taught by someone that has that experience which is then passed on to you...etc.
A novice who can barely cut grass may turn out to be an avid kind of expert of plants and shrubbery and so on.
How?
By books, word of mouth and by own experimentation. No issues there.
Everybody has a certain skill level and it all comes down to the mindset on how far that skill level can advance in whatever situation is placed upon that person.

What I do find fascinating though is if you dismiss all the above as being provable, if you reject basic maths and geometry then what are you left with?

I'm using tidbits just to reiterate that I'm not against what you're implying.

At least with that you have a solid set of provable rules and equations that point to a globe earth.

But you don't. You have absolutely nothing that points to a globe Earth other than what you accept as a storyline based on mathematics that are made to fit in with that storyline..

There is no physics or maths that backs up any other model, so people are left with a choice. Do you reject all mathematics and dismiss the globe, do you accept mathematics and the globe or do you go for something else where there is no maths to back it up? The second one is the only logical choice.

Not at all.
It's no different to being told to accept the big bang is the truth and anything else is just wild speculation.
You believe in a globe because it's a saturation from almost cradle to grave.

 

[zinedine]

Would it blow their mind?

You must be logged on to see media items

I didn't know it was frozen around the edges to stop the seas from flowing off . God was a clever man.

 

[DaveH]

I'm not arguing against mathematics. I'm not arguing against being educated. I'm simply saying we followed a curriculum like they do to this day.
That doesn't mean what is taught is wrong in all of that but there's a lot of it that it taught that has no basis for truth, which comes down to the big bang and all the rest of what's been and being argued.



I have no issues with any of that. I accept that.
When it comes down to light year stars and all the rest of the so called space stuff, that's what I'm arguing.



But it isn't. It's absolutely not provable to anyone other than those who claim it to be yet cannot show any reality,
If you think they do then you're welcome to that thought.



What are you feeding into it?
You can set anything up to play out a scenario. It doesn't mean that scenario is based on reality, in terms of so called space and such like.



Somebody will always feel insulted by almost anything that goes against their grain. I get enough insults and you can argue it's deserved. I accept that and have no issue.
I don't intentionally insult people but I know what I say does not sit well with those who follow a set train of thought.


We all do it in life with almost everything. Like I said about exams. Exams are to gauge what what placed into your memory by regurgitation, whether that's a theory of a practical exercise.
You can be told a story which may or may not be a true story and asked to do an exam on it. What do you gain?
You gain a certificate if you paid attention but not a lot more if the story was meaningless in terms of reality, except the ability to memorise and regurgitate.


Absolutely and it can be used theoretically and practically in life. I have no issues with any of that.
My argument is not against that.



There's always somebody that will show something new aside from their natural training/schooling. If there's a reality to it then there's always aducation from that and because of that...and so on.
Basically we are all creatures of habit whether we like to think we aren't. We are memory mimics and also visual.



Advancement of knowledge by what means? Being taught by someone that has that experience which is then passed on to you...etc.
A novice who can barely cut grass may turn out to be an avid kind of expert of plants and shrubbery and so on.
How?
By books, word of mouth and by own experimentation. No issues there.
Everybody has a certain skill level and it all comes down to the mindset on how far that skill level can advance in whatever situation is placed upon that person.



I'm using tidbits just to reiterate that I'm not against what you're implying.



But you don't. You have absolutely nothing that points to a globe Earth other than what you accept as a storyline based on mathematics that are made to fit in with that storyline..


Not at all.
It's no different to being told to accept the big bang is the truth and anything else is just wild speculation.
You believe in a globe because it's a saturation from almost cradle to grave.

I think to rephrase all that waffle ”There is absolutely nothing that points to a globe earth that you understand”. That is the key difference. There is, as much as there is to support 2+2=4. But if you don’t understand observations, maths, physics and how to prove from first principals then I can see how someone lacking in basic knowledge can think like you do.

There is always the alternative with some conspiracy theorists that they don’t want to understand and want to be different. But either way the facts are there.

From a personal point of view, the fact that I can not explain to you the very basics is a failing of my ability to break it down to the simplest level and your ability to understand the most simple things. It does not affect the actual truth.

 

[Lester1979]

Hemisphere?

Since you felt the need to try and be clever by ignore my point so I’ll just go with your choice.

The definition of Hemisphere is:

- a half of a sphere.

- a half of the earth, usually as divided into northern and southern halves by the equator, or into western and eastern halves by an imaginary line passing through the poles.

- a half of the celestial sphere.

 

[DPTT]

Oh dear, I think that is where the problem lies.

Mathematics is all about proof, proving one thing equals another. Some areas of science are 'to the best of our knowledge at this time' and theories are refined on as knowledge progresses, but maths is absolute. 2+2=4. That is not brainwashing, that is not subjective, it just is.

You then take it further than algebra and look at pi, Pythagoras and trigonometry - your basics of geometry built on the foundations laid by Euclid. Those are also absolute proven fact. You can calculate stuff on the small scale and measure it with a ruler for proof, and those rules form the basis on which all roads, buildings, massive ships etc are designed. Geometry just is, the modern world would not work if those rule were wrong.

However you apply the same geometric hard and fast rules to accurate observational evidence of the world and night sky and it all points to the same thing. And the key thing is it is all provable down to first principals. In the modern era, rather than sit with pen and paper, computers can do all the calculations for us and even render all that in 3D. You feed the observations and basic geometric rules into a simulator and the same things pop out. That is not perception or personal bias, it is just maths.

Quite frankly what you say is demeaning and insulting. You claim you don't insult people but there is evidence just there. "You regurgitate what is drilled in". No. Thousands upon thousands of people learn the provable basics from 2+2=4 upwards. It is called knowledge, learning and intelligence. People like myself are not sheep just repeating stuff, people actually take things back to the first principals and build from there. Nowt to do with curriculum and passing exams, that is way behind someone of my age, it is all about learning, personal interest and advancement of knowledge.

What I do find fascinating though is if you dismiss all the above as being provable, if you reject basic maths and geometry then what are you left with? At least with that you have a solid set of provable rules and equations that point to a globe earth. There is no physics or maths that backs up any other model, so people are left with a choice. Do you reject all mathematics and dismiss the globe, do you accept mathematics and the globe or do you go for something else where there is no maths to back it up? The second one is the only logical choice.

Brilliant!!

 

[legend7]

A really nice example is that combining pi and trig there are well established equations for the length of an arc given the radius and the angle between two points on a circle/sphere cross-section.

On a globe (or circle edge), if you move 10 degrees around the surface then anything you are looking at (say a point on the ceiling when you have a small camera on a large ball) would appear 10 degrees lower. One of my scope mounts needs to align to polaris and hence measures the angle precisely. From my house and my mams I can confidently say that polaris is 3.6 degrees lower in the sky. Using actual coordinates, that says it should be 3.55 degrees, so that double checks my measurements. So if I've travelled 3.55 around the globe and I take a value for the radius of the earth then I should be able calculate how much further north my mams house is.

You must be logged on to see external links

Angle = 3.55
Radius in miles from many sources: 3958.756

Result, 245 miles due north. She is further east so an actual trip is longer, but this agrees with maps and roughly what my car odometer measures when I take the not-due-north route.

If the earth was not a globe or if the radius was not as above, this would not work.

Basically observational evidence plus basic mathematics fact points to not only a globe but the size of it. I'd love to see a flat earther be able to explain this and why maths shows it with such accurate precision. Of course what we all know will happen is that next time our resident CT gets to a computer there will be a screen full of text which will say many things but essentially be 'wibble'.

I'm with you.
But I've no doubt that loon will find some way to say we have been brainwashed with maths

 

[DaveH]

I'm with you.
But I've no doubt that loon will find some way to say we have been brainwashed with maths

That is the key to being a conspiracy theorist and a wum on the internet. Denial is really easy. Take anything you want:

"Cars don't move, it is the ground moving beneath them"

Clearly not true by basic observational evidence of cars moving in different directions and at different speeds. But go on try and offer me any proof you like that cars move...... well that is just what you have been schooled into believing. There is zero evidence that cars move and you might actually think they move but lets face it you have been told stories about cars moving since you were a small child so that is what you expect to see. That is what it all comes down to, some sort of story that people buy into. I used to think like you but after a few years I realised I could be better and more intelligent than you by realising the truth. When it boils down to it, there is zero proof that cars move and you might believe you know they do but you are wrong, you are just following the narrative.

Easy isn't it? The whole issue waved away and I've called you some sort of retard in the process. But what I have actually said is fuck all. I have neither constructively dismissed evidence or provided any evidence against and if pressed I'll rephrase the above differently.

So go on then, can you prove cars move? I seriously doubt it.

 

[legend7]

That is the key to being a conspiracy theorist and a wum on the internet. Denial is really easy. Take anything you want:

"Cars don't move, it is the ground moving beneath them"

Clearly not true by basic observational evidence of cars moving in different directions and at different speeds. But go on try and offer me any proof you like that cars move...... well that is just what you have been schooled into believing. There is zero evidence that cars move and you might actually think they move but lets face it you have been told stories about cars moving since you were a small child so that is what you expect to see. That is what it all comes down to, some sort of story that people buy into. I used to think like you but after a few years I realised I could be better and more intelligent than you by realising the truth. When it boils down to it, there is zero proof that cars move and you might believe you know they do but you are wrong, you are just following the narrative.

Easy isn't it? The whole issue waved away and I've called you some sort of retard in the process. But what I have actually said is fuck all. I have neither constructively dismissed evidence or provided any evidence against and if pressed I'll rephrase the above differently.

So go on then, can you prove cars move? I seriously doubt it.

You sound just like him

 

[Nukehasslefan]

I think to rephrase all that waffle ”There is absolutely nothing that points to a globe earth that you understand”. That is the key difference.

No. There's nothing to support the global Earth we are told to believe. Absolutely nothing in reality. There's plenty of hark back into history arguments pertaining to names that supposedly managed to figure it all out and these historical people are regularly used as some kind of proof, even with the supposed technology of today which should be more than capable....if it were the globe we are told about.
But there's really nothing other than pictures of a supposed blue marble Earth or supposed visuals from a supposed 18,000 mph ISS, as we're told, including all the made for TV silliness they get up to.

Seriously, from my side, there's nothing. No proof but plenty of stories.

There is, as much as there is to support 2+2=4. But if you don’t understand observations, maths, physics and how to prove from first principals then I can see how someone lacking in basic knowledge can think like you do.

What are you observing about Earth's shape that complies with your maths?

There is always the alternative with some conspiracy theorists that they don’t want to understand and want to be different. But either way the facts are there.

Conspiracy theorist is a word used to basically batter down anyone that goes against the grain. It means nothing.
As for facts in terms of a global Earth we're told about, there are none. You believe there are because you follow that train of thought, like many.

From a personal point of view, the fact that I can not explain to you the very basics is a failing of my ability to break it down to the simplest level and your ability to understand the most simple things. It does not affect the actual truth.

I think it's a failing of anyone to break anything down to any level because there simply isn't any proof we are on a spinning ball or oblate spheroid in a vacuum of space.
There simply isn't any truth. No facts, just stories sold as factual.

Since you felt the need to try and be clever by ignore my point so I’ll just go with your choice.

The definition of Hemisphere is:

- a half of a sphere.

- a half of the earth, usually as divided into northern and southern halves by the equator, or into western and eastern halves by an imaginary line passing through the poles.

- a half of the celestial sphere.

Here's the magdeburg hemispheres.

You must be logged on to see external links

 

[The Krankie Returns]

That is the key to being a conspiracy theorist and a wum on the internet. Denial is really easy. Take anything you want:

"Cars don't move, it is the ground moving beneath them"

Clearly not true by basic observational evidence of cars moving in different directions and at different speeds. But go on try and offer me any proof you like that cars move...... well that is just what you have been schooled into believing. There is zero evidence that cars move and you might actually think they move but lets face it you have been told stories about cars moving since you were a small child so that is what you expect to see. That is what it all comes down to, some sort of story that people buy into. I used to think like you but after a few years I realised I could be better and more intelligent than you by realising the truth. When it boils down to it, there is zero proof that cars move and you might believe you know they do but you are wrong, you are just following the narrative.

Easy isn't it? The whole issue waved away and I've called you some sort of retard in the process. But what I have actually said is fuck all. I have neither constructively dismissed evidence or provided any evidence against and if pressed I'll rephrase the above differently.

So go on then, can you prove cars move? I seriously doubt it.

@DaveH
Stop trying to prove you’re right to him. It won’t work.
A long time ago on here there was a poster who had a Tagline similar to ‘Never argue with idiots. They will beat you down to their level then get you with experience’.
I prefer another one which I think was attributed to Christopher Hitchens. ‘You have the right to believe in whatever you want. I have the right to find that belief utterly ridiculous’.
Let him believe in what he wants if that is what he really does believe, which I seriously doubt he does.

 

[DaveH]

@DaveH
Stop trying to prove you’re right to him. It won’t work.
A long time ago on here there was a poster who had a Tagline similar to ‘Never argue with idiots. They will beat you down to their level then get you with experience’.
I prefer another one which I think was attributed to Christopher Hitchens. ‘You have the right to believe in whatever you want. I have the right to find that belief utterly ridiculous’.
Let him believe in what he wants if that is what he really does believe, which I seriously doubt he does.

You are right, but sometimes I get drawn in.

He is really thick but also likes a windup. Look at the post above, on the same page where I posted some maths and observations demonstrating the curve of the earth, and he asks for evidence of maths and observations demonstrating the curve of the earth.

 

[Northern Boarders]

He's a complete WUM just looking for attention. Nobel Laureates, renowned scientists, accepted scientific theory & explanations on here are easily dismissed while providing no alternative credible science or theory.
As I said in a previous post & someone else said above, I find it quite insulting that some people dedicate their whole life to science & the advancement of the human race and then some nobody sits behind a screen and dismisses it because they aren't intelligent enough to understand it.

 

[babyimreadytoblow]

@DaveH
Stop trying to prove you’re right to him. It won’t work.
A long time ago on here there was a poster who had a Tagline similar to ‘Never argue with idiots. They will beat you down to their level then get you with experience’.
I prefer another one which I think was attributed to Christopher Hitchens. ‘You have the right to believe in whatever you want. I have the right to find that belief utterly ridiculous’.
Let him believe in what he wants if that is what he really does believe, which I seriously doubt he does.

Yep, it's a wind up account.

I love a bit of winding people up on here, every now and then for a laugh.

But this is plain attention seeking and it's actually pitiful.

 

[The Krankie Returns]

Yep, it's a wind up account.

I love a bit of winding people up on here, every now and then for a laugh.

But this is plain attention seeking and it's actually pitiful.

I’ve suggested to the mods on here that this thread needs to be closed. If for nothing else to preserve the sanity of everyone involved. So far though nothing. Perhaps they’ve decided not to.

 

[DaveH]

Yep, it's a wind up account.

I love a bit of winding people up on here, every now and then for a laugh.

But this is plain attention seeking and it's actually pitiful.

I'm not convinced. There are a couple who say they are flat earthers or believe in other conspiracies, will pop up and post a provocative one liner then leave it at that. They don't try to engage in any meaningful way. This one goes to great lengths to make strangers on the internet believe he is thick as pig shit and puts in some very long posts. He has been keeping it up for a few years. Unless it is a wind up of someone very needy, they must be getting something out of the responses.

I have noticed that all the posts are designed to get a response of some kind.

 

[Nukehasslefan]

You are right, but sometimes I get drawn in.

He is really thick but also likes a windup. Look at the post above, on the same page where I posted some maths and observations demonstrating the curve of the earth, and he asks for evidence of maths and observations demonstrating the curve of the earth.

You didn't post any maths demonstrating any curve of Earth.

 

[zwartekat]

You didn't post any maths demonstrating any curve of Earth.

Yes he did.

 

[DaveH]

Yes he did.

But a part from the link to the maths......

You don't know how this game is played. Ignore content of previous posts, even when quoted. That gets a FFS sake response from the poster. Make them type it out again in detail. Then ignore bits you don't like and then say that proves nothing. Then I'll repeatedly ask for maths or and explanation of how the data I showed shows that polaris gets lower by a predictable amount as you move south. Best I'll get is some wooly answer involving magic bending light with no real explanation, I'll ask again for maths or science behind it, he will say maths and science don't matter, they are tools to help tell fanciful stories, everyone will say bollocks, I'll give up. End result, nowt except 35 replies which will greatly excite him.