Jeremy Bamber White House Farm...Innocent or Evil scumbag?

Chris

New Member
So you are saying 2 separate mistakes were made and her body was missed yet if you look at the photo she left a bloody trail where she dragged herself around the bed is it really credible that experienced officers would not follow the trail of blood to find the body.

From what I understand the crime scene was used as an opportunity to train firearms officers as evidenced by the photo of the rifle being propped by a window so someone moved it. Also the photo showing a different hand placement of Sheila on the gun indicating that the crime scene was reconstructed which it would have to be when the rifle was removed and put by the window.

I agree with you there is a lot that should be made public because police deny the training opportunity, as they have many other things including that the gun was moved yet there is a photo showing it had. Many people seem certain of guilt or innocence, I was not there so could not say that I know who carried out the killings, why or how. unlike many commentators who seem very certain.

What I do know is the investigation was botched, many things have been covered up by the police at the time of the trial and the conviction is questionable, without even calling in to question the possible financial incentives a guilty verdict would bring to some of the witnesses, which the jury did not know about even though they tried to inquire at the time of Robert who said he had no incentive, but his wife and children got a lot of money and even Jeremy did not know that he would inherit half of the land Robert farmed which could have left Robert in financial ruin.
 


So you are saying 2 separate mistakes were made and her body was missed yet if you look at the photo she left a bloody trail where she dragged herself around the bed is it really credible that experienced officers would not follow the trail of blood to find the body.

From what I understand the crime scene was used as an opportunity to train firearms officers as evidenced by the photo of the rifle being propped by a window so someone moved it. Also the photo showing a different hand placement of Sheila on the gun indicating that the crime scene was reconstructed which it would have to be when the rifle was removed and put by the window.

I agree with you there is a lot that should be made public because police deny the training opportunity, as they have many other things including that the gun was moved yet there is a photo showing it had. Many people seem certain of guilt or innocence, I was not there so could not say that I know who carried out the killings, why or how. unlike many commentators who seem very certain.

What I do know is the investigation was botched, many things have been covered up by the police at the time of the trial and the conviction is questionable, without even calling in to question the possible financial incentives a guilty verdict would bring to some of the witnesses, which the jury did not know about even though they tried to inquire at the time of Robert who said he had no incentive, but his wife and children got a lot of money and even Jeremy did not know that he would inherit half of the land Robert farmed which could have left Robert in financial ruin.
Well mistakes were made because Sheila was 28 and not either 26 or 27 years old. That is clearly a fact.

The blood trail around the bed has been tested and found to be June's who was shot first when she was in bed then recovered enough to walk round the bed and back again to near the doorway where she died. Again this an undisputed fact. There is no evidence that Sheila was shot first in the kitchen where she was allegedly reported by TFG officers and then once they entered the building, made her way upstairs to the main bedroom where she shot herself again fatally, there was no blood trail to indicate she had. The same PC Adams who reported seeing a female in the kitchen then later complained that upstairs her body had been moved by the time photographs were taken compared to how he recollected seeing her on the bedroom floor..

I agree the Police investigation was initially poor and full disclosure should be made but you have to separate human error from wilful conspiracy to make a reasonable case.
PS
It is worth bearing in mind that because of wild speculation on the JeremyBamber Forum (often referred to as the Blue Forum) that Jeremy Bamber himself asked for it to be closed down as it was harming his case.
Yet one of the people who was instrumental in setting up that form and who met Jeremy in prison and who has supported him ever since is now claiming Jeremy confided in him that he had killed the rest of the family but not his sister as he needed her to found alive to take the blame. Weird all round and no wonder Bamber would rather see it closed down.
Although Bamber asked for it to be closed down long before this latest "revelation".
The latest claim being that as Bamber was found guilty of murdering Sheila that despite his actually murdering the rest of the family he was convicted on a technicality regarding Sheila and his conviction should be quashed. You couldn't make it up, well obviously you could.
 
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UrbanFox

Goalkeeper
Neither West or Bonnet could confirm any call was received from Nevill Bamber.
Cheers for that MB. You are way ahead of me in this so forgive me if I’m stating the obvious but I do have a couple of points:
1. The link I provided is headed “New Call Logs Evidence, Oct 2019”
( so effectively only 4/5 months ago). The link includes samples of police call logs and explanations below them of how they purportedly prove that PC West did communicate with Nevill Bamber, and how this allegedly confirms that Jeremy Bamber could not be where the police said he was. (There is too much in the link to quote here so the link is best read in full). No mention is made of a Mr Bonnet but there is reference to radio messages and the involvement of Police Officers Bews, Saxby & Myall.
2. All the above stuff about new call log evidence is by all accounts new and seemingly is going to be used as the basis for another appeal Jeremy Bamber murders: New evidence 'could lead to one of Britain's most notorious killers being freed'
I’m not sure whether you’re aware of all of this?
Apologies ,as I’ve inadvertently put all my above points across as a quote.
 
Apologies ,as I’ve inadvertently put all my above points across as a quote.
Well if it is new evidence they will no doubt elaborate and provide more detail in due course, but the logs linked to earlier have an entry from Bonnet timed as 3:26 but that is the call obviously received from West who is recorded as the sender CD (1990).
 

UrbanFox

Goalkeeper
Well if it is new evidence they will no doubt elaborate and provide more detail in due course, but the logs linked to earlier have an entry from Bonnet timed as 3:26 but that is the call obviously received from West who is recorded as the sender CD (1990).
Aye. I guess we’ll have to await the full grounds for the new appeal but if this interpretation of the logs is proved reasonable then I reckon JB has a strong case.
 

UrbanFox

Goalkeeper
He was a massive wanker on that programme like, good enough for me.
Be very careful about a TV drama construct. From what I’ve read about Jeremy Bamber and the case he certainly does, in the round, come across as an odious and odd individual. That does not however make him provably guilty of the crime.
 

Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
Good thread but to long to read

Did he do it or not ?
In a nutshell..

On balance, the evidence suggests his sister decided to kill herself and her twin sons. Her adoptive parents tried to intervene. It's unlikely that Bamber had any physical involvement in the crime. Can't be 100% certain he had no foreknowledge or didn't assist (eg by leaving the gun out).

It may have been a two gun crime (Anthony Pargeter rifle) . At trial, Bamber was defended poorly by Geoffrey Rivlin, who up to that point, had only ever been a prosecution barrister. The police ran rings around Bamber's defence, withholding tonnes of evidence. Something may have gone wrong with the TFG operation at 7.30am, to force entry in to the farmhouse. Crime scene photography didn't begin until 10am and the police restaged his sister's crime scene beforehand. Bamber himself seems to have done himself few favours and the main prosecution witnesses had financial motive to put him away. Nobody had any real understanding of his sister's mental health issues. The relatives (prosecution witnesses) had ties to certain police officers and they wouldn't take no for an answer, from the police officers who refused to investigate Bamber. The physical evidence against Bamber was fabricated. The cops still won't release certain evidence.
 

UrbanFox

Goalkeeper
In a nutshell..

On balance, the evidence suggests his sister decided to kill herself and her twin sons. Her adoptive parents tried to intervene. It's unlikely that Bamber had any physical involvement in the crime. Can't be 100% certain he had no foreknowledge or didn't assist (eg by leaving the gun out).

It may have been a two gun crime (Anthony Pargeter rifle) . At trial, Bamber was defended poorly by Geoffrey Rivlin, who up to that point, had only ever been a prosecution barrister. The police ran rings around Bamber's defence, withholding tonnes of evidence. Something may have gone wrong with the TFG operation at 7.30am, to force entry in to the farmhouse. Crime scene photography didn't begin until 10am and the police restaged his sister's crime scene beforehand. Bamber himself seems to have done himself few favours and the main prosecution witnesses had financial motive to put him away. Nobody had any real understanding of his sister's mental health issues. The relatives (prosecution witnesses) had ties to certain police officers and they wouldn't take no for an answer, from the police officers who refused to investigate Bamber. The physical evidence against Bamber was fabricated. The cops still won't release certain evidence.
That, in a nutshell, is an excellent prècise of the case as how I see it. Reading through the documentation gave me serious reasons to believe that a) Bamber’s lawyers were hopeless and b) the system (including the Appeals process) is heavily skewed in favour of the original judicial decision.
 
Good thread but to long to read

Did he do it or not ?
Jeremy Bamber broke into the farmhouse with at least one extra magazine fully loaded. He had already removed the sights from the rifle as that could have been a hindrance in close quarters. He takes the kitchen phone off the hook to prevent Nevill using the main bedroom phone as there was only one line. He enters the boys bedroom and shoots each boy once in the head, He then moves along the landing to the main bedroom where he shoots June 4 times in bed as she curls up into a defensive position and Nevill 4 times two are in the mouth, one in the upper left shoulder and the other a grazing shot in the left arm.

Jeremy needs to now switch magazines and Nevill heads for kitchen as he knows the phone must be off the hook. In he kitchen a ferocious struggle takes place and Nevill is battered with rifle barrel and the wooden butt of the gun part of which breaks off. He then shoots Nevill four times in the head which are fatal. Jeremy then returns upstairs where Sheila has gone to her mother's aide. June has risen from bed injured and made her way around the bottom the bed but returns to door where Jeremy shoots her another three times that are fatal. He then crosses the bedroom and as Sheila is frozen with fear and easily controlled he forces her to lie down and shoots he in the neck, However, this is not immediately fatal so he shoots her again up under the chin into the head.

He now needs to change magazines again and goes into the boys room where he fires a group a four shots close together but separate from the first shot into Daniel and two more spaced apart into the head of Nicholas to create the impression of a frenzied attack. He then returns to the main bedroom and exchanges magazine for now empty original one and places the gun on Sheila and the Bible next to her. He takes the main bedroom phone and takes it downstairs where he replaces the kitchen phone that he hides under some magazines and leaves the bedroom phone off the hook in the kitchen. He places the sound moderator at the back of the cupboard and makes his exit through the window. He cycles back to his home and calls Julie Mugford.
 
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Chris

New Member
Then he gives the keys to the relatives so they can find the moderator and then asks the housekeeper to clean up the magazines so she can find the phone.
 
Then he gives the keys to the relatives so they can find the moderator and then asks the housekeeper to clean up the magazines so she can find the phone.
After most of the forensic evidence including carpets and bedding had been destroyed, cremations arranged for the adults and the Police firmly committed to a murder/suicide by Sheila. He thought no one suspected him. He did return at a later date and broke into the farm through a window to allegedly pick up some documents but hadn't been told the silencer had been found. He even left a note to Barbara Wilson.
He had no option but leave the moderator at the farm or it would have been missed but rather than being left on the rifle as it usually was for shooting rabbits it ends up at the back of a cupboard.
The fact the sights had been removed from the rifle should have raised questions.
I also find it odd that in his interview he told Police that he had tried to phone Nevill back but the line was engaged so he couldn't get through. Maybe he didn't realise that the tone for a phone left off the hook is not the engaged tone.
 
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Chris

New Member
Of course if you do not want anyone to know you had sneaked in, you leave a note to show you had been there.
 
Of course if you do not want anyone to know you had sneaked in, you leave a note to show you had been there.
Of course he wanted people to know he had sneaked in. Then if any evidence such as scratches was found on window frames he could claim it was a result of that entry. He could have simply asked for the keys.
 

Chris

New Member
There were 2 moderators at the farm one owned by another member of the family who kept his gun there. One moderator was recorded as being fingerprinted 2 days before the one found by the family was given to police.
The reason Jeremy got an engaged tone was because Nevill was phoning the police as their records show.
But why let evidence get in the way of a good theory.
 
There were 2 moderators at the farm one owned by another member of the family who kept his gun there. One moderator was recorded as being fingerprinted 2 days before the one found by the family was given to police.
The reason Jeremy got an engaged tone was because Nevill was phoning the police as their records show.
But why let evidence get in the way of a good theory.
Not sure of the significance of 2 moderators. One was found to contain in the inner baffles the blood of Sheila that had formed into a flake. Supporters of Bamber claim the enzyme could also be found in rabbits but the blood was identified as human in origin and probably the result of a shot to the neck that sliced the jugular.

What evidence of Nevill phoning the Police? The logs produced earlier clearly indicate that the one recorded at 3:26 by Bonnet was received from PC West whose call sign was CD (1990).

So what forensic evidence is there to prove Sheila committed the murders. No evidence of contact with any bullets and only one fingerprint on the rifle. Her finger is placed next to the trigger although she would be more likely to use her thumb. No blood on her nightie of anyone but herself. None of her blood found anywhere else in the house. Yet some of the theories put forward have been bizarre:

She shot herself first in the kitchen where she was first seen by PC Collins (Above I posted Adams in error). Then Collins states the bedroom photograph is not as he recollected regarding Sheila. So she sneaked upstairs after the TFG entered to finish herself off. But the open line being monitored recorded no sound of a gunshot and none of the TFG did either.

No evidence on her body of handling weapons or bullets yet she would have needed to reload twice. No blood of the others on her nightie. So she must have taken a bath and changed into her nightie to wash away the evidence. So what happened to the clothes she had been wearing. It was a bloodbath. So she shot herself in the kitchen that sliced her jugular open then went and had a bath and changed clothes then went upstairs and shot herself again all after the TFG had entered the property and without leaving a trace of blood anywhere.

I've even seen one theory that she made a sandwich for herself in the kitchen after shooting herself in the neck.

Allegation that Sheila was running around the property while the Police were outside barking like a dog to fool them.

That both June and Sheila had been involved in the killings as a result of a row.

What would Sheila be bothered that Nevill was about to call 999 and then all he had to do was leave it off the hook for the call handler to hear what was going on and could name the killer. Why would Sheila be bothered who knew if she intended to kill them all and herself. So why such a struggle in the kitchen unless that phone call would have been damning for the killer.

At least let our conjecture be realistic.
 
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Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
Of course he wanted people to know he had sneaked in. Then if any evidence such as scratches was found on window frames he could claim it was a result of that entry.
I put this up previously. It explains the windows. Police told a relative that sophisticated equipment had detected no tampering with the windows.

 
I put this up previously. It explains the windows. Police told a relative that sophisticated equipment had detected no tampering with the windows.

"Sophisticated equipment" turns out to be Taff Jones doing a quick visual tour. I agree I don't think Bamber used the kitchen window. Yet he did prove he could get into the property using the old sash window in the bathroom and it is possible to flip the catch shut on these old worn sash windows using a piece of string.
You keep saying there is no forensic evidence to link Bamber to the murders but what forensic evidence is there linking Sheila?
....What would Sheila be bothered that Nevill was about to call 999 and then all he had to do was leave it off the hook for the call handler to hear what was going on and could name the killer. Why would Sheila be bothered who knew if she intended to kill them all and herself. So why such a struggle in the kitchen unless that phone call would have been damning for the killer.....
Looking at this in greater depth, Jeremy claimed in interview that it sounded like the call from Nevill had been interrupted and cut off, presumably by Sheila. So what does Nevill do except say to Sheila, "Hang on pet. I know you've gone crazy and got the gun but can we just have a pause in your psychotic breakdown while I call the Police?". Sheila says "Of course dad" and then when he is finished this waif of a lass batters him unconscious with the butt of the rifle before shooting him dead in the head. I must say these middle class are very polite even in the middle of a killing spree.
 
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UrbanFox

Goalkeeper
“What evidence of Nevill phoning the Police? “
Again, Posts 263,264 & 265, which infer “new evidence” dating back as recently as October last year, and which you contributed to, may answer that very question.
Conjecture is fine and adds to the interest but at the end of the day guilt, provable beyond reasonable doubt is all that matters. I think so far there are doubts which are reasonable, irrespective of other personal opinions about Bamber himself.
 

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