Jeremy Bamber White House Farm...Innocent or Evil scumbag?

....I could certainly go with an assassin type who has no compunction about taking out the kids. I seriously cannot see Sheila or even Jeremy doing that......but....but. This is the issue. I don't know him nor Sheila, nor the dad.
What's to say there isn't a massive twist in this carry on. A twist that's maybe so far out as to never warrant a thought.
There are problems with the assassin scenario. What if he was caught in the act, then Jeremy is fucked. There would also be someone who could come back at any time in the future and cause him hassle. An assassin may have had qualms about killing two young boys in their sleep. One was shot in the back of the head and the other in the face while he was sucking his thumb. If the assassin couldn't complete the job then they would inherit half the wealth and Jeremy wanted it all without future comeback.

The only person he could rely on was himself. Personally, I'm more inclined to believe he took another pre-loaded magazine which he disposed of afterwards.
25 shots were fired and 30 left in the box that originally contained 50 so where did the extra 5 bullets come from.
 
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hoggs11

Central Defender
Imagine getting up at about 6:30am, likely all week, getting to the farm to start work at 7:30am and, whilst having a few small breaks, being in a tractor all day in a field, hot and sticky, until 9:30 at night, then asking your dad to finish off the last load.
Up for 15 hours by this point and then travelling back home to then change clothing and cycle all the way back to the farm to commit the 5 murders, ensuring everything was in place enough to ensure police will figure it to be a murder/suicide and then cycling back home without anyone seeing him to and from on the bike and all in darkness.

Then having another shower and watching some TV plus having food before going to bed, setting the alarm to wake him up so he could call the police to make out Nevill phoned him and then make his way back to the farm..... this time in his car.

Possible?
I'm not so sure.

I'm also not so sure Sheila could've done it, either.

And although I'm unsure, I'll still put stuff up that can maybe give food for thought to other who may be able to put something extra to it that may help my mindset on what really went on leading up to and after the murders..
Days like that are pretty common in farming. Especially summertime. I'm 36 and I know I'm pretty wide awake after a long harvest day, not to say that iv ever bumped someone off after cutting a field of wheat. Being tired wouldn't be an issue
 
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Jeremy was asked about the extra bullets during interview but couldn't offer an explanation.
The fact is the killer has introduced extra bullets to the scenario and that could not be Sheila.
It's interesting that when he was in the witness box Jeremy was asked by the prosecution barrister if he had killed his family and his response was words to the effect "Well that is up to you to prove". Weird.
 
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Nukehasslefan

Central Defender
There are problems with the assassin scenario. What if he was caught in the act, then Jeremy is fucked. There would also be someone who could come back at any time in the future and cause him hassle. An assassin may have had qualms about killing two young boys in their sleep. One was shot in the back of the head and the other in the face while he was sucking his thumb. If the assassin couldn't complete the job then they would inherit half the wealth and Jeremy wanted it all without future comeback.

The only person he could rely on was himself. Personally, I'm more inclined to believe he took another pre-loaded magazine which he disposed of afterwards.
25 shots were fired and 30 left in the box that originally contained 50 so where did the extra 5 bullets come from.
Hmmm, interesting. That's very plausible with the extra magazine.
 
Hmmm, interesting. That's very plausible with the extra magazine.
If he had used another magazine that he brought with him, he could use the one on the farm until empty then use the extra one. If he needed to refill again then after he had killed Sheila all he had to do was switch back to the empty one from the farm and take the other with him. Whereas if he took the sound moderator he knew that would eventually be missed. No one could miss something that was never there and its an incredible coincidence that Sheila needed the very last bullet to shoot herself the second time leaving an empty magazine on the rifle. Especially as 5 extra bullets had appeared out of fresh air.
 
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Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
If he had used another magazine that he brought with him, he could use the one on the farm until empty then use the extra one. If he needed to refill again then after he had killed Sheila all he had to do was switch back to the empty one from the farm and take the other with him. Whereas if he took the sound moderator he knew that would eventually be missed. No one could miss something that was never there and its an incredible coincidence that Sheila needed the very last bullet to shoot herself the second time leaving an empty magazine on the rifle. Especially as 5 extra bullets had appeared out of fresh air.
Regarding your point re the sound moderator. It was known to exist. If it went missing, then that would seem odd. If Jeremy Bamber knew that there were contact shots / wounds and potential blood contamination as a result, it doesn't make much sense to put an unclean and therefore potentially incriminating exhibit, in a gun cupboard, and then hand the keys to the farmhouse to his relatives.

I have already posted up on this thread about the testimony of Malcolm Fletcher in court. He lied and was forced to admit, that he had never actually come across another instance of 'back-patter' involving a .22 rifle with a sound moderator attached, until this case, for which he carried out no experiments to prove his findings. The sound moderator was deliberately contaminated after the fact, precisely because of the lack of physical evidence incriminating Bamber. In any event, there were two sound moderators, not one. Essex Police have tried to maintain that there was only one sound moderator, but their own custodial records for the exhibit/s prove otherwise.

Regarding your bullets / magazine/s / cartridges thoughts. I will try to post up some info later today. You will never get to the actual truth of what occurred by treating the prosecution case as being built upon bona-fide police work (even if he did it).
*back-spatter
 
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Regarding your point re the sound moderator. It was known to exist. If it went missing, then that would seem odd. If Jeremy Bamber knew that there were contact shots / wounds and potential blood contamination as a result, it doesn't make much sense to put an unclean and therefore potentially incriminating exhibit, in a gun cupboard, and then hand the keys to the farmhouse to his relatives.

I have already posted up on this thread about the testimony of Malcolm Fletcher in court. He lied and was forced to admit, that he had never actually come across another instance of 'back-patter' involving a .22 rifle with a sound moderator attached, until this case, for which he carried out no experiments to prove his findings. The sound moderator was deliberately contaminated after the fact, precisely because of the lack of physical evidence incriminating Bamber. In any event, there were two sound moderators, not one. Essex Police have tried to maintain that there was only one sound moderator, but their own custodial records for the exhibit/s prove otherwise.

Regarding your bullets / magazine/s / cartridges thoughts. I will try to post up some info later today. You will never get to the actual truth of what occurred by treating the prosecution case as being built upon bona-fide police work (even if he did it).
*back-spatter
It would indeed be odd if it went missing. Just as odd if the sights had been removed when it was primarily used for rabbit shooting than in close quarters where they would be a hindrance. We only have Bamber's word that he left the rifle out for Sheila to subsequently use as a weapon of opportunity. Especially as he knew Nevill would surely put the rifle back in the cupboard after finishing work. Blood was found in the sound moderator although it was mainly removed during the swabbing for tests so that years later when dna was found inside the sound moderator it could not be confirmed as originating from blood so was dismissed as evidence for the prosecution at the Appeal Court. Not sure how dna from the victims could have ended up there though.

The sound moderator was found at the back of the cupboard. Maybe Bamber assumed the relatives would be more interested in the valuables in the house and didn't suspect him enough to conduct a more thorough search.
 
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Nukehasslefan

Central Defender
Is it possible there were two guns used of the same make?
I mean, didn;t the relatives have two silencers of the same make that fit the
If he had used another magazine that he brought with him, he could use the one on the farm until empty then use the extra one. If he needed to refill again then after he had killed Sheila all he had to do was switch back to the empty one from the farm and take the other with him. Whereas if he took the sound moderator he knew that would eventually be missed. No one could miss something that was never there and its an incredible coincidence that Sheila needed the very last bullet to shoot herself the second time leaving an empty magazine on the rifle. Especially as 5 extra bullets had appeared out of fresh air.
Yep, you do make some excellent points.
 
Is it possible there were two guns used of the same make?
I mean, didn;t the relatives have two silencers of the same make that fit the

Yep, you do make some excellent points.
I think the Bible blood stains on an open page with a once alleged suicide note inside is the final clincher. It is clear that blood had been picked up on an open page. While the blood was still wet the Bible has been closed and then opened again at the same page and a mirror blood print has been transferred to the opposite page along the upper edge margin. There can be no doubt this book has been closed and then opened again after Sheila's death and then placed slightly resting on her arm. The alleged suicide note turned out to be in June's handwriting and was one of several notes she used to make in preparation for her Bible classes.

The prosecution missed the significance of this mirrored blood staining at the original trial and for obvious reasons the defence must have breathed a sigh of relief and left this issue well alone. Only at the Appeal did the defence make it an issue when they had nothing to lose and the prosecution looked into it deeper to come to the obvious conclusion.

If you are not careful supporters of Jeremy Bamber will suck you into their continuous grasping at straws and all you will end up with is a conspiracy theory as defence. I knew nothing of this case until the drama on ITV began but have looked into the evidence since then. I have analysed that evidence and come to my own conclusions. I have not attempted to misrepresent anything but stated how I saw it. However, I have had enough of Jeremy Bamber taking a place in my mind and thoughts. Time to move on and my final word....

Guilty.
 
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Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
I think the Bible blood stains on an open page with a once alleged suicide note inside is the final clincher. It is clear that blood had been picked up on an open page. While the blood was still wet the Bible has been closed and then opened again at the same page and a mirror blood print has been transferred to the opposite page along the upper edge margin. There can be no doubt this book has been closed and then opened again after Sheila's death and then placed slightly resting on her arm. The prosecution missed the significance of this mirrored blood staining at the original trial and for obvious reasons the defence must have breathed a sigh of relief and left this issue well alone. Only at the Appeal did the defence make it an issue when they had nothing to lose and the prosecution looked into it deeper to come to the obvious conclusion.
The bible has a bloodied palm stain on it that was not used in the prosecution against Jeremy Bamber. The police lied to Bamber's legal representation, denying there were any photographs of the bible (when in fact, there were). Bamber's solicitor at the time (Paul Terezon) later submitted a lengthy complaint about police tactics that hindered Bamber's defence, which included this particular issue.

Re the positioning of the bible:

PC Delgado
(Tactical Firearms Group) “Looked at video of photographs of scene. As a result PC Collins and I not happy with position of the bible by Sheila’s body. I was happy with the position of the body in relation to furniture. We felt they were real concerns and we spoke to DS Jones, DCI Jones initially reassured us body was as it had been. Later stage further discussion, unhappy as a group. Feelings passed onto inspector Montgomery and interview with Supt Ainsley arranged. Reassured body had not been moved. I’m happy to accept this fact now although in the back of my mind still a shadow of doubt. Were we clouded by what we saw because of the tenseness of the situation or could they have been moved ??”

PC Collins
(Tactical Firearms Group):“Query photo’s – bible/head Sheila.”

PC Adams (Tactical Firearms Group):
“Photo of Sheila not in same position as when I saw it … Head too close to bedside table … Not sure about angle of head but something not right … No recollection of gun... Bible shown next to body, was level with waist 12” – 18” away

After the raid team (who entered the building at 7.30am) dispersed and left the scene, other different sets of officers entered the farmhouse for various reasons, prior to scenes of crimes photography which doesn't take place until around 10am.

Do you honestly believe that it's a coincidence: that the first set of officers to enter the farmhouse later complained about the position of the bible in crime scene photos later taken by their colleagues; and the police deliberately whitheld photographs of the bloodied bible from the defence; and didn't use the palm print against Bamber??

IT WAS THE POLICE WHO PLACED THE BIBLE OVER SHEILA'S ARM AND THERE WAS LIKELY A PURPOSE FOR DOING SO (in one of the crime scene images, there is a very distinctive blood stain just visible underneath the bible).

The alleged suicide note turned out to be in June's handwriting and was one of several notes she used to make in preparation for her Bible classes.
Again this is incorrect, in part. Nobody (except for the police) ever caught sight of the note that was in the bible, which had 'Love One Another' written on it - a phrase synonymous with the Jonestown mass suicide event in Guyana '78. This is why Bamber's defence have queried whether it may have been a suicide note.

Many years after the conviction, letters came to light which had been discovered by police in Sheila's bedside table, and which are addressed to her birth mother. In them, it is written that her and her babies will soon be at rest and not to worry about the Police or 'The Sun' visiting.

Again, many years later, as per the recent Daily Star article, it came to light that one of the lead detectives, DS Stan Jones (who coached Julie Mugford) verbally told interviewers (during a Met investigation in to Essex Police handling of the case), that they (EP) had discovered a suicide note. He describes it as saying 'I've killed myself'.


If you are not careful supporters of Jeremy Bamber will suck you into their continuous grasping at straws and all you will end up with is a conspiracy theory as defence. I knew nothing of this case until the drama on ITV began but have looked into the evidence since then. I have analysed that evidence and come to my own conclusions. I have not attempted to misrepresent anything but stated how I saw it. However, I have had enough of Jeremy Bamber taking a place in my mind and thoughts. Time to move on and my final word....

Guilty.
What you have done on this thread is to repeatedly ignore examples of alternative evidence that either point directly away from Bamber or indicate corruptive, unethical practices by Essex Police. You have simply regurgitated the prosecution evidence, and then used that to justify the conviction. Anyone who is able to challenge parts of the prosecution case is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist'.
 
The bible has a bloodied palm stain on it that was not used in the prosecution against Jeremy Bamber. The police lied to Bamber's legal representation, denying there were any photographs of the bible (when in fact, there were). Bamber's solicitor at the time (Paul Terezon) later submitted a lengthy complaint about police tactics that hindered Bamber's defence, which included this particular issue.

Re the positioning of the bible:

PC Delgado
(Tactical Firearms Group) “Looked at video of photographs of scene. As a result PC Collins and I not happy with position of the bible by Sheila’s body. I was happy with the position of the body in relation to furniture. We felt they were real concerns and we spoke to DS Jones, DCI Jones initially reassured us body was as it had been. Later stage further discussion, unhappy as a group. Feelings passed onto inspector Montgomery and interview with Supt Ainsley arranged. Reassured body had not been moved. I’m happy to accept this fact now although in the back of my mind still a shadow of doubt. Were we clouded by what we saw because of the tenseness of the situation or could they have been moved ??”

PC Collins (Tactical Firearms Group):“Query photo’s – bible/head Sheila.”

PC Adams (Tactical Firearms Group):
“Photo of Sheila not in same position as when I saw it … Head too close to bedside table … Not sure about angle of head but something not right … No recollection of gun... Bible shown next to body, was level with waist 12” – 18” away

After the raid team (who entered the building at 7.30am) dispersed and left the scene, other different sets of officers entered the farmhouse for various reasons, prior to scenes of crimes photography which doesn't take place until around 10am.

Do you honestly believe that it's a coincidence: that the first set of officers to enter the farmhouse later complained about the position of the bible in crime scene photos later taken by their colleagues; and the police deliberately whitheld photographs of the bloodied bible from the defence; and didn't use the palm print against Bamber??

IT WAS THE POLICE WHO PLACED THE BIBLE OVER SHEILA'S ARM AND THERE WAS LIKELY A PURPOSE FOR DOING SO (in one of the crime scene images, there is a very distinctive blood stain just visible underneath the bible).

Again this is incorrect, in part. Nobody (except for the police) ever caught sight of the note that was in the bible, which had 'Love One Another' written on it - a phrase synonymous with the Jonestown mass suicide event in Guyana '78. This is why Bamber's defence have queried whether it may have been a suicide note.

Many years after the conviction, letters came to light which had been discovered by police in Sheila's bedside table, and which are addressed to her birth mother. In them, it is written that her and her babies will soon be at rest and not to worry about the Police or 'The Sun' visiting.

Again, many years later, as per the recent Daily Star article, it came to light that one of the lead detectives, DS Stan Jones (who coached Julie Mugford) verbally told interviewers (during a Met investigation in to Essex Police handling of the case), that they (EP) had discovered a suicide note. He describes it as saying 'I've killed myself'.

What you have done on this thread is to repeatedly ignore examples of alternative evidence that either point directly away from Bamber or indicate corruptive, unethical practices by Essex Police. You have simply regurgitated the prosecution evidence, and then used that to justify the conviction. Anyone who is able to challenge parts of the prosecution case is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist'.
Firstly, I am referring to the wider pro Bamber websites when I refer to their last line of defence as a conspiracy theory. Maybe there was a conspiracy but that is a different issue to the evidence presented in the Bamber case. At one point his representatives were proposing MI6 involvement.

I have also stated that certain prosecution evidence that was presented to the Court of Appeal was not considered by them as it could have been known at the time of the trial. Evidence such as Sheila's body being moved and the Bible being closed and opened again before being placed near to Sheila. The prosecution did not present the Bible blood stain as evidence against Bamber because it may not have been his palm if indeed it was a palm print which is contentious. The Police did state that the only fingerprints they could identify in the Bible belonged to June and a child.The Bible is listed as a court exhibit but the defence raised no issue at the time. It is no good using a Theologian to explain the meaning of the open pages as I doubt if Sheila was that theological by nature but June was. The note I am referring to was photographed inside the Bible but has been confirmed as June's handwriting on a card which she often did in preparation for her Bible classes.

The alleged suicide note you are referring to was found in Sheila's bedroom and has been discussed on this thread and as some commented a suicide note is not evidence of suicide. It was described as illegible by the Police. I doubt if Sheila wrote two suicide notes and regarding the one in the main bedroom in the Bible how did she do that in the dark and where is the pen.

If one of the TFG can recollect no rifle on Sheila's body then how did she commit suicide considering the second shot was instantly fatal.

For me personally, it is time to clear my mind and thoughts of Jeremy Bamber who I genuinely believe is guilty so I'm outa here.
...
As most people would agree, the crux of the matter is whether Bamber is lying about the alleged phone call from Nevill who he claims said words to the effect "Sheila is going crazy and has the gun". I have mainly tried to determine if Sheila could have murdered her family and committed suicide because if she did not then Bamber is guilty by default. Sheila is entitled to a defence as much as Bamber, perhaps even more so because she is not alive to defend herself against such a terrible accusation. That she murdered her own children.
 
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Nukehasslefan

Central Defender
I think the Bible blood stains on an open page with a once alleged suicide note inside is the final clincher. It is clear that blood had been picked up on an open page. While the blood was still wet the Bible has been closed and then opened again at the same page and a mirror blood print has been transferred to the opposite page along the upper edge margin. There can be no doubt this book has been closed and then opened again after Sheila's death and then placed slightly resting on her arm. The alleged suicide note turned out to be in June's handwriting and was one of several notes she used to make in preparation for her Bible classes.

The prosecution missed the significance of this mirrored blood staining at the original trial and for obvious reasons the defence must have breathed a sigh of relief and left this issue well alone. Only at the Appeal did the defence make it an issue when they had nothing to lose and the prosecution looked into it deeper to come to the obvious conclusion.

If you are not careful supporters of Jeremy Bamber will suck you into their continuous grasping at straws and all you will end up with is a conspiracy theory as defence. I knew nothing of this case until the drama on ITV began but have looked into the evidence since then. I have analysed that evidence and come to my own conclusions. I have not attempted to misrepresent anything but stated how I saw it. However, I have had enough of Jeremy Bamber taking a place in my mind and thoughts. Time to move on and my final word....

Guilty.
I'm still looking into evidence. I've read one book and I've read snippets of a hell of a lot of stuff.
You make a lot of good points but my stance is neither guilty for Bamber or guilty for Sheila....yet.
There's still far too much dodgy stuff about all of this for me to come to any conclusion.

I have to try and look at it from a jurors point of view, which means I have to pick at all evidence...some of which I'm not privy to.
A 10 to 2 majority doesn't mean guilt, it just means mass opinion wins the day.
Two people did not think he was guilty ot were not sure enough to add to the 10.

I just think there's something more to this massacre and as it stands, nobody is innocent nor guilty as of yet....for me.
Here's something I find odd.
On Tuesday, 6 August JB described working at the farm until 8-9 p.m. before returning to the farmhouse for supper where he stayed for about half an hour. JB said there was a discussion between his parents and Sheila about future plans for the children and mention was made of foster parents. Sheila appeared "vacant" during this conversation.

What I find odd about this is, why would anyone talk about foster parents when Colin Caffell (kids' father) had custody of them.
It makes no sense.

Can anyone shed any light onto this?
Here's something I find odd.
On Tuesday, 6 August JB described working at the farm until 8-9 p.m. before returning to the farmhouse for supper where he stayed for about half an hour. JB said there was a discussion between his parents and Sheila about future plans for the children and mention was made of foster parents. Sheila appeared "vacant" during this conversation.

What I find odd about this is, why would anyone talk about foster parents when Colin Caffell (kids' father) had custody of them.
It makes no sense.

Can anyone shed any light onto this?
 
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Roker Skate

Goalkeeper
On Tuesday, 6 August JB described working at the farm until 8-9 p.m. before returning to the farmhouse for supper where he stayed for about half an hour. JB said there was a discussion between his parents and Sheila about future plans for the children and mention was made of foster parents. Sheila appeared "vacant" during this conversation.

What I find odd about this is, why would anyone talk about foster parents when Colin Caffell (kids' father) had custody of them.
It makes no sense.

Can anyone shed any light onto this?
As I understand it, he was asked what he could remember from the evening before. He expressed that he wasn't paying much attention to the conversation round the dinner table. It wasn't 'foster parents' it was 'fostering'.

As previously mentioned, the detective who replaced DCI Taff Jones, was Det Supt Michael Ainsley. One of the most serious acts of deception by Ainsley was over the issue of foster-care for the twins. The fact was, Sheila had used foster care previously and it was being considered again. Ainsley had statements made by foster carers but these were only in a hand written form and were not typed-up and not produced as evidence. None of the foster carers were called to give evidence at Trial, in an attempt to undermine Jeremy and depict him as lying about the issue.

Statements from social workers were not disclosed to the DPP on the 25th September 1985 when Ainsley and colleagues pressed for murder charges to be brought against Jeremy. The Defence did not know at the time Jeremy was charged with murder that the DPP believed Jeremy had invented the story about hearing plans for fostering discussed on the evening prior to the killings. Det. Spt. Ainsley’s report to the DPP regarding fostering of the children states:
“I think it is only right to say that Jeremy is the only source of such a suggestion and he has been quite active in spreading this information or, as I would believe, misinformation. Every person who knew Ralph Nevill, June and Sheila are all agreed that this is an outrageous suggestion and would never have been suggested or entertained by these persons, not forgetting the natural father, Colin Caffell whose authority would have been required and I might add not forthcoming.”
He goes on to state (his own capitals),
"THERE WAS MENTION OF FOSTER PARENTS ALONG WITH OTHER SOLUTIONS". I think it only right, to say that Jeremy is the only source of such a suggestion and he has been quite active in spreading this information, or as I would believe, misinformation. EVERY person who knew Ralph Nevill, June and Sheila are all agreed that this is an outrageous suggestion and would never have been suggested or entertained by these persons, not forgetting the natural father, Colin CAFFELL, whose authority would have been required and I might add not forthcoming".
Ainsley knew with 100% certainty that Sheila had obtained help with the children in the past and had organised day foster care. Eight separate Actions were raised by Essex Police to obtain statements from ten distinct persons employed by Westminster and Camden Social services regarding the fact that Sheila had needed their help in the past. Ainsley also had the statement from Colin Caffell’s mother who stated that she and June had talked about foster care.

This is just one example of how Ainsley’s deliberate lies to the DPP were used to denigrate Bamber at Court and in later appeal hearings.

Also to be considered: If Bamber was savvy, he could have portrayed Sheila as having been raging at the suggestion from her parents of any extra help for her. However, he simply describes her as being vacant. Sheila's psychiatrist was later quoted as saying that the suggestion of fostering could have had a "catastrophic" affect upon her. Nobody could have known this, prior to the killings. And, if Colin Caffell had complete custody, it therefore makes no sense for Bamber to invent a conversation about 'fostering' purely as a device to infer she reacted violently as a consequence.
I'm enjoying reading this thread more than I enjoyed the TV series!

Some good posts. Nice change for this place!
You might enjoy reading this: An Innocent Man by David Shaw...

'David Shaw' wrote an acclaimed book that exposed the use of steroids in sport. He turned his attention to the Bamber case and may have had inside contacts, His book was never published, probably because no publisher would risk it. It's unfinished and like the drama, it is not entirely factual. But his intention was to expose the scandal. At the bottom of each page, you have to click 'newer post' to move to next page.

For anyone interested in the bullets / magazine issue, one of the chapters is entitled 'a tale of two guns'.
When we talk about police stitching someone up for a crime, it's normally because they don't have any leads and are under pressure for a conviction. Given that they had already reached a conclusion that was agreed amongst the police and satisfied the public initially, what would be the motivation for switching their focus to Jeremy? I read something earlier in the thread about pressure from other family members, but can't really believe the police would give much of a shit about that, particularly with a wrapped case. Apologies if that has been mentioned and answered earlier.
The family had connections to some police officers. One in particular wasn't even on the case but got involved, by passing inside info to and from relatives, for example regarding the crime scene or rgearding their theories implicating Jeremy. It is suspected that the TFG operation did not go smoothly. However, not all officers who entered the crime scene were privy to what had took place. This was a huge event for EP and many police (based in different teams / stations) visited the scene. Some of the police officers took a dislike to Bamber, which placed them on the same wavelength as the relatives. The relatives were threatening to go to the press a they felt their concerns were not being treated seriously - and it is likely they possessed information that may have proved embarrassing for the police. After a meeting between Robert Boutflour and ACC Peter Simpson, Simpson agreed that Bamber could be investigated and appointed Dept Supt Michael Ainsley to the case, replacing DCI Thomas Jones. Ainsley set about overseeing the concealment and withholding of anything that indicated Sheila Caffell. His appointment roughly coincided with Julie Mugford 'coming forward'.
[/QUOTE]

Regards that crime scene picture, obviously it's not my area of expertise, but can't see how those are fingernail scratches? The 'crescent' that the initial fingernail entry would make is upsidedown on each 'scratch'...the edges should be pointing down in the direction of the scratch, not up and away from it. To me it very much looks like a congealed, dried river of blood that has ended in a drop - but it has flaked or rubbed off when dry, possibly by someone moving her hands after the event. Again, unless I've misunderstood previous posts, why hasn't the autopsy report clearly noted fingernail scratches? Did they find skin or blood under the fingernails of whoever did it supposedly (Neville?)?
There are other images, including one where you can see a bluish tinge to the crescent wound. I suspect that how the scrapes would form is dependent upon the angle of contact between hands and the angle of break-up (of contact), within the struggle. There are other nicks, cuts and grazes not mentioned. Mam has a gash on her chin (the skin unbroken) which has bruised - not mentioned. Ainsley cannot allow evidence of a physical struggle between Sheila and either parent to reach trial. Such evidence would simply exculpate Bamber, as the defence would draw attention to it.

Not sure whether fingernail scraping evidence was taken during the first investigation. It certainly would not have featured in the 2nd investigation.
 
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Chris

New Member
As I understand it, he was asked what he could remember from the evening before. He expressed that he wasn't paying much attention to the conversation round the dinner table. It wasn't 'foster parents' it was 'fostering'.

As previously mentioned, the detective who replaced DCI Taff Jones, was Det Supt Michael Ainsley. One of the most serious acts of deception by Ainsley was over the issue of foster-care for the twins. The fact was, Sheila had used foster care previously and it was being considered again. Ainsley had statements made by foster carers but these were only in a hand written form and were not typed-up and not produced as evidence. None of the foster carers were called to give evidence at Trial, in an attempt to undermine Jeremy and depict him as lying about the issue.

Statements from social workers were not disclosed to the DPP on the 25th September 1985 when Ainsley and colleagues pressed for murder charges to be brought against Jeremy. The Defence did not know at the time Jeremy was charged with murder that the DPP believed Jeremy had invented the story about hearing plans for fostering discussed on the evening prior to the killings. Det. Spt. Ainsley’s report to the DPP regarding fostering of the children states:


He goes on to state (his own capitals),


Ainsley knew with 100% certainty that Sheila had obtained help with the children in the past and had organised day foster care. Eight separate Actions were raised by Essex Police to obtain statements from ten distinct persons employed by Westminster and Camden Social services regarding the fact that Sheila had needed their help in the past. Ainsley also had the statement from Colin Caffell’s mother who stated that she and June had talked about foster care.

This is just one example of how Ainsley’s deliberate lies to the DPP were used to denigrate Bamber at Court and in later appeal hearings.

Also to be considered: If Bamber was savvy, he could have portrayed Sheila as having been raging at the suggestion from her parents of any extra help for her. However, he simply describes her as being vacant. Sheila's psychiatrist was later quoted as saying that the suggestion of fostering could have had a "catastrophic" affect upon her. Nobody could have known this, prior to the killings. And, if Colin Caffell had complete custody, it therefore makes no sense for Bamber to invent a conversation about 'fostering' purely as a device to infer she reacted violently as a consequence.


You might enjoy reading this: An Innocent Man by David Shaw...

'David Shaw' wrote an acclaimed book that exposed the use of steroids in sport. He turned his attention to the Bamber case and may have had inside contacts, His book was never published, probably because no publisher would risk it. It's unfinished and like the drama, it is not entirely factual. But his intention was to expose the scandal. At the bottom of each page, you have to click 'newer post' to move to next page.

For anyone interested in the bullets / magazine issue, one of the chapters is entitled 'a tale of two guns'.


The family had connections to some police officers. One in particular wasn't even on the case but got involved, by passing inside info to and from relatives, for example regarding the crime scene or rgearding their theories implicating Jeremy. It is suspected that the TFG operation did not go smoothly. However, not all officers who entered the crime scene were privy to what had took place. This was a huge event for EP and many police (based in different teams / stations) visited the scene. Some of the police officers took a dislike to Bamber, which placed them on the same wavelength as the relatives. The relatives were threatening to go to the press a they felt their concerns were not being treated seriously - and it is likely they possessed information that may have proved embarrassing for the police. After a meeting between Robert Boutflour and ACC Peter Simpson, Simpson agreed that Bamber could be investigated and appointed Dept Supt Michael Ainsley to the case, replacing DCI Thomas Jones. Ainsley set about overseeing the concealment and withholding of anything that indicated Sheila Caffell. His appointment roughly coincided with Julie Mugford 'coming forward'.


There are other images, including one where you can see a bluish tinge to the crescent wound. I suspect that how the scrapes would form is dependent upon the angle of contact between hands and the angle of break-up (of contact), within the struggle. There are other nicks, cuts and grazes not mentioned. Mam has a gash on her chin (the skin unbroken) which has bruised - not mentioned. Ainsley cannot allow evidence of a physical struggle between Sheila and either parent to reach trial. Such evidence would simply exculpate Bamber, as the defence would draw attention to it.

Not sure whether fingernail scraping evidence was taken during the first investigation. It certainly would not have featured in the 2nd investigation.
[/QUOTE]

I am glad in your posts you talk about a moderator it is not like a silencer you see in films it changes the high frequency sound that animals hear, but makes very little difference to the human hearing of a 22 rifle shot.

An example of a similar 10 shot rifle being fired with and without a moderator is available on youtube.


I have difficulty understanding how Sheila could have reloaded and extra magazines would make sense which would point to Jeremy.

The fresh blood would point to Sheila so there are points for and against either.

Some things are difficult to understand such as Nevill phoning the police mentioning Sheila and a gun, which only came to light after the trial.
Also how the photographs taken at the time showed no scratches on the fireplace, but later did.

I do not know who did it, but think the police should not withhold evidence and on balance I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt either did it, so I think a retrial with all evidence presented should be carried out as soon as possible.
 

UrbanFox

Goalkeeper
This is a fascinating case and discussion, conducted with a level of civility for which the SMB isn’t generally known so well done to all contributors.
Mercia Blackcat seems to have withdrawn from the debate but here’s what he mentioned in his last paragraph in post No. 252:
“As most people would agree, the crux of the matter is whether Bamber is lying about the alleged phone call from Nevill who he claims said words to the effect "Sheila is going crazy and has the gun".
I came across this which is a recent ( I think) bit of related stuff about the phone calls -
Jeremy Bamber Campaign Official Web Site - New Call Logs Evidence Oct 2019.
Sorry if it’s been mentioned before but I think it adds to the mystery!
 
This is a fascinating case and discussion, conducted with a level of civility for which the SMB isn’t generally known so well done to all contributors.
Mercia Blackcat seems to have withdrawn from the debate but here’s what he mentioned in his last paragraph in post No. 252:
“As most people would agree, the crux of the matter is whether Bamber is lying about the alleged phone call from Nevill who he claims said words to the effect "Sheila is going crazy and has the gun".
I came across this which is a recent ( I think) bit of related stuff about the phone calls -
Jeremy Bamber Campaign Official Web Site - New Call Logs Evidence Oct 2019.
Sorry if it’s been mentioned before but I think it adds to the mystery!
Well, I had taken in a lot of evidence over a short period and felt like I didn't want to get sucked into going round in circles which is not the fault of anyone but myself as it is so easy to do. However, I can answer this.

The log on the right is that of PC West who received Jeremy's call. In the top right in the receiver section is his (West's) reference 1990.

PC West then called a civilian call handler Malcolm Bonnet whose log is on the left. In the sender section top left is recorded PC West reference number CD(1990) and in the receiver section MB(6) Bonnet's reference.

This is not new evidence and was challenged in Court where PC West admitted he probably misread the digital clock as 3:36 instead of 3:26 which makes sense as he could not have called Bonnet 10 minutes before he had received the call from Jeremy.

Neither West or Bonnet could confirm any call was received from Nevill Bamber.
....I do not know who did it, but think the police should not withhold evidence and on balance I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt either did it, so I think a retrial with all evidence presented should be carried out as soon as possible.
I remain convinced Sheila did not commit the murders and her suicide so that leaves Jeremy as the guilty party but I accept there are some strange discrepancies. Whether that is due to Police incompetence or corruption, I am inclined to believe the former. As a former analyst for most of my life I know that most errors occur in verbal communications between people even if notes are taken at the time. For example in the call log claimed to be from Nevill (the left hand log) Sheila's age is recorded as 26 whereas in the alleged call from Jeremy (the right hand log) her age is recorded as 27. Yet, on the 18 July 1985 Sheila Caffell had her 28th birthday only 3 weeks before the killings. Would Nevill get his daughter's age wrong by 2 years?

I agree there should be full disclosure of all evidence and I agree all anomalies deserve investigation but unless some seriously new evidence emerges I will remain convinced of the verdict.
PS
I'm not sure a retrial would be realistic as most of the people involved at the time are now deceased.
 
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UrbanFox

Goalkeeper
Well, I had taken in a lot of evidence over a short period and felt like I didn't want to get sucked into going round in circles which is not the fault of anyone but myself as it is so easy to do. However, I can answer this.

The log on the right is that of PC West who received Jeremy's call. In the top right in the receiver section is his (West's) reference 1990.

PC West then called a civilian call handler Malcolm Bonnet whose log is on the left. In the sender section top left is recorded PC West reference number CD(1990) and in the receiver section MB(6) Bonnet's reference.

This is not new evidence and was challenged in Court where PC West admitted he probably misread the digital clock as 3:36 instead of 3:26 which makes sense as he could not have called Bonnet 10 minutes before he had received the call from Jeremy.

Neither West or Bonnet could confirm any call was received from Nevill Bamber.

Cheers for that MB. You are way ahead of me in this so forgive me if I’m stating the obvious but I do have a couple of points:
1. The link I provided is headed “New Call Logs Evidence, Oct 2019”
( so effectively only 4/5 months ago). The link includes samples of police call logs and explanations below them of how they purportedly prove that PC West did communicate with Nevill Bamber, and how this allegedly confirms that Jeremy Bamber could not be where the police said he was. (There is too much in the link to quote here so the link is best read in full). No mention is made of a Mr Bonnet but there is reference to radio messages and the involvement of Police Officers Bews, Saxby & Myall.
2. All the above stuff about new call log evidence is by all accounts new and seemingly is going to be used as the basis for another appeal Jeremy Bamber murders: New evidence 'could lead to one of Britain's most notorious killers being freed'
I’m not sure whether you’re aware of all of this?
Apologies ,as I’ve inadvertently put all my above points across as a quote.
 
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Chris

New Member
I have looked at the evidence without having a bias one way or the other.
There is far too much evidence from the police themselves which is not conjecture, that literally does not add up.


For example they recorded 2 people downstairs which could have been a mistake and if they had then recorded 4 people upstairs I would be more convinced it was recording mistake, but they did not they recorded 3 people upstairs which reinforces the recording of 2 downstairs.



I find it hard to believe experienced police and firearms officers would find it so hard to count 5 bodies accurately. There are far too many items that are not simple to explain so a retrial should now happen with all the evidence presented, none of us can say with certainty what happened which is in itself a problem and I do not see how anyone can be convinced of guilt or innocence without reasonable doubt.
 
I have looked at the evidence without having a bias one way or the other.
There is far too much evidence from the police themselves which is not conjecture, that literally does not add up.

For example they recorded 2 people downstairs which could have been a mistake and if they had then recorded 4 people upstairs I would be more convinced it was recording mistake, but they did not they recorded 3 people upstairs which reinforces the recording of 2 downstairs.

I find it hard to believe experienced police and firearms officers would find it so hard to count 5 bodies accurately. There are far too many items that are not simple to explain so a retrial should now happen with all the evidence presented, none of us can say with certainty what happened which is in itself a problem and I do not see how anyone can be convinced of guilt or innocence without reasonable doubt.
That could be explained by there being a running log kept at control where TFG comments are being recorded. There could have been an error in the kitchen that resulted in Nevill being described as female then male and on going upstairs finding the two boys then June in the doorway of her bedroom. Sheila was on the floor on the opposite side of the bed and perhaps initially out of sight. As I said in my experience most errors occur as a result of verbal communications even if notes are made.

What I think is of more significance is the comments posted by Roker Skate of the observations of the TFG officers Delgado, Collins and Adams who complained that the position of Sheila was different from the subsequent video they saw. In particular to her head position and the Bible. Perhaps the explanation is innocent for example they may have attempted to determine if she was actually dead and moved the body then put them back but that should be made public if it is true.
 
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