CDDFT

[Skandhaless]

I

It’s a peculiar one. NHS workers have to take plenty of healthcare precautions to work front of shop. The refusal to adhere to this new measure is odd. Surely if the unvaccinated staff have such limited faith in medical science it’s probably best they seek alternative employment anyway?

Can't understand it either , you have to be TB vaccinated always have so it's a strange hill to die on from staff perspective .

 

[Gaz]

That's a lot of people and a lot of services that could be impacted. I assume it's only 'patient-facing' staff who are at risk of being sacked. I don't know how many staff are 'patient facing' but if we assume 60%, and we assume Channel 4 have used the number of 'patient-facing' staff who are unvaccinated rather than the total number of unvaccinated NHS staff, that's about 7% of patient-facing staff would be redeployed or lose their jobs.

Based on that ONS report, you could infer it's going to be a greater issue in the South of England, as well as in trusts serving highly urbanised areas. The impact might be relatively small on trusts like CDDFT that serve a rural population on the whole.

What is “patient facing” though, because i’ve not seen anything that defines that with regards to mandatory vaccs.

I suspect lots who don’t see patients will end up in that group to have mandatory vaccs & vice versa

 

[pavarotti1980]

What is “patient facing” though, because i’ve not seen anything that defines that with regards to mandatory vaccs.

I suspect lots who don’t see patients will end up in that group to have mandatory vaccs & vice versa

I was having this discussion the other day. In my trust there has so far been no defined guidance on how they will categorise patient facing/front line. There is some discussion on whether it should be done by profession or whether it should be on a case by case basis. If it was profession then a lot of people will be caught up without actually ever seeing a patient but if done on a case by case basis then this will be quite and painful task to complete.

 

[Frijj]

What is “patient facing” though, because i’ve not seen anything that defines that with regards to mandatory vaccs.

I suspect lots who don’t see patients will end up in that group to have mandatory vaccs & vice versa

I don’t work in HR or for the NHS but I guess it’ll be up to line managers to determine if their staff are patient facing, with staff being able to go to HR to appeal this if they’re against vaccination and believe their role doesn’t involve patients.

Personally I’d say anyone who in the course of their duties interacts face-to-face with patients, is patient-facing, though as I’ve outlined above, I have no experience of working with patients or in the health service to say that with certainty.

It does however seem plausible that everyone from the receptionist booking patients in, to the porters who transport patients, to the doctors, nurses and healthcare assistants who treat and care for patients, are patient facing.

I was having this discussion the other day. In my trust there has so far been no defined guidance on how they will categorise patient facing/front line. There is some discussion on whether it should be done by profession or whether it should be on a case by case basis. If it was profession then a lot of people will be caught up without actually ever seeing a patient but if done on a case by case basis then this will be quite and painful task to complete.

I suppose those professionally registered staff who do not see patients in their routine work, would in an emergency be expected to carry out patient facing work, no?

 

[pavarotti1980]

I suppose those professionally registered staff who do not see patients in their routine work, would in an emergency be expected to carry out patient facing work, no?

Possibly but then again it depends on their current role. I certainly wouldnt be doing any patient facing stuff. Havent spoke to a patient since 2013

 

[Frijj]

Possibly but then again it depends on their current role. I certainly wouldnt be doing any patient facing stuff. Havent spoke to a patient since 2013

fair enough, no mandatory jab for you!

 

[pavarotti1980]

fair enough, no mandatory jab for you!

Aye but they could just classify it by profession. Makes no difference as I am jabbed and boosted but it will affect some

 

[Frijj]

Aye but they could just classify it by profession. Makes no difference as I am jabbed and boosted but it will affect some

I can see the logic of that but I’d hope they’d go case by case due to small numbers, the number of unvacced professionally registered staff will be low id say

 

[Gaz]

I don’t work in HR or for the NHS but I guess it’ll be up to line managers to determine if their staff are patient facing, with staff being able to go to HR to appeal this if they’re against vaccination and believe their role doesn’t involve patients.

Personally I’d say anyone who in the course of their duties interacts face-to-face with patients, is patient-facing, though as I’ve outlined above, I have no experience of working with patients or in the health service to say that with certainty.

It does however seem plausible that everyone from the receptionist booking patients in, to the porters who transport patients, to the doctors, nurses and healthcare assistants who treat and care for patients, are patient facing.


I suppose those professionally registered staff who do not see patients in their routine work, would in an emergency be expected to carry out patient facing work, no?

Its the usual problem of government making decisions / policies without any thought on guidance or how it’ll work

 

[Frijj]

Its the usual problem of government making decisions / policies without any thought on guidance or how it’ll work

They didn’t have much choice I guess. I am 100% behind them on this. I’d have mandatory vaccinations for all tbf.

 

[Gaz]

They didn’t have much choice I guess. I am 100% behind them on this. I’d have mandatory vaccinations for all tbf.

I’m not for existing contracted staff, but i am for new starters. I suspect someone will challenge it legally before long

Lets see how many actually leave and how it affects the NHS, if its anywhere near the suggested figures its going to be chaos

 

[pavarotti1980]

They didn’t have much choice I guess. I am 100% behind them on this. I’d have mandatory vaccinations for all tbf.

I disagree. If ones like influenza and hep B vaccines are not mandatory then what is the thinking for COVID ones. Not enough carrot and too much stick to reach the end point.

 

[Frijj]

I disagree. If ones like influenza and hep B vaccines are not mandatory then what is the thinking for COVID ones. Not enough carrot and too much stick to reach the end point.

I’d definitely make the flu vaccine mandatory for health and social care staff mind. I’m definitely not in the majority on this though.

 

[pavarotti1980]

I’d definitely make the flu vaccine mandatory for health and social care staff mind. I’m definitely not in the majority on this though.

It cant be done in the manner it is. Now they could force everyone onto new contracts with this as a term but quite how they will do it in April when it is not in a contract I dont know. And of course the relevant NHS trust is the one in the firing line, not the absolute circus in charge unless DHSC is going to indemnify employers.

 

[tynevalleyblackcat]

Surely they're more at risk than the people they're treating? If you go onto a building site with no hard hat, then it's your own fault if something comes down on you.

Er no, you would not be allowed on site without one (or without having had a safety induction) and if you were spotted taking it off then you risk being reported and banned from site on the spot.

Health and safety rules 'gone mad' like this have massively reduced the death toll in construction over the last 30 years.

 

[Botchie]

Er no, you would not be allowed on site without one (or without having had a safety induction) and if you were spotted taking it off then you risk being reported and banned from site on the spot.

Health and safety rules 'gone mad' like this have massively reduced the death toll in construction over the last 30 years.

I think you've taken my example too seriously there.

 

[tynevalleyblackcat]

It's probably in line with much of the population..

NHS has close to a million employees I think

Vast majority of that 70k I suspect will be lower down the chain from higher up clinical staff although no doubt a fair few outliers amongst them too

Problem with doctors etc who might refuse is where else are they to practice ..

Cleaners etc could find hospitality work etc but for some it's medicine or nothing

Maybe not true, but it used to do the rounds (in the 80's) that the NHS were the worlds third biggest employers behind the Chinese railway and the Soviet army.

I think you've taken my example too seriously there.

Maybe but my point is that health and safety on building sites these days is taken very seriously. And that's a very good thing.

 

[Baloo]

@No7 any idea how many have gone the journey? Was it immediate dismissal?

 

[Gelan]

Er no, you would not be allowed on site without one (or without having had a safety induction) and if you were spotted taking it off then you risk being reported and banned from site on the spot.

Health and safety rules 'gone mad' like this have massively reduced the death toll in construction over the last 30 years.

Botchie meant "if you could go onto a building site without a helmet" so he has a point...they are taking a risk.

 

[No7]

@No7 any idea how many have gone the journey? Was it immediate dismissal?

No idea on numbers mate. She’s at graft now. I’ll ask her what’s gone on when she gets in, she’ll be home in an hour

@No7 any idea how many have gone the journey? Was it immediate dismissal?

All non-vaccinated staff were given their letters yesterday. She doesn’t know what they say though