Black Lives Matter

[East Riding Mackem]

BLM the cause is noble enough - of course BL matter - but the organisation is a neo-Marxist popular front. It's theoretical basis is part Critical Theory (ie critique the status quo) and part postmodernism (ie 'deconstruct' and 'problematise' the status quo). I don't know of one right thinking person anywhere who thinks racism is ever acceptable or that slavery or empire were good things. But it's an epic leap from that to say all white people a) have privilege and b) are somehow responsible for 'systemic' racism. Here this system-level racism is really a proxy for poverty - also thrown in is alleged police brutality. In London as regards the first, they have half a point - most poor people are BAME. In the Midlands and the North, 85% are white - some privilege. As for police brutality, since 2011 on average one black person a year has died in custody (BBC); in the same time period 15 white people per year have. On top of this the MO is to wage culture war against those that oppress -all white people, no matter how skint - and also BAME people who've done well or aren't down with the programme. This war is done by attacking history, statues, etc etc - this a profoundly ahistorical way of looking at the subject as it focuses only on certain periods of history and not others - the fact is slavery and empires are as old as time and are still with us (not that anyone seems to care about the current victims eg 9 million in India)- the popular front though is only interested in those parts of history it can attack to undermine current institutions & in this case British institutions. What the end point of all of this is meant to be, they do not know. What any of this has to do with football - no one has a clue either, especially the media, they genuinely don't have a clue.

 

[two left feet]

Suppose the issue is still police brutality.

Absolutely. Whichever way you look at it, something needs to be done.

 

[AndyH]

think it was a news report - no matter the ultimate accuracy of the quoted figures and even if the white figure were halved it would still be staggering.

Ultimately there is still a staggering amount of racisms in this country, let alone other parts of the world.

They might be staggering but it doesn't mean the disparity in the deaths are caused by racism, and i stress nor does it mean that they are not.

This is not aimed at you by the way just in general:
It's a complex problem, people are doing univariate analysis, taking the result and drawing conclusions which are wrong. If you do a univariate analysis it's like putting two and two together and coming up with seven.
If you want to fix a problem you need to first identify the cause of the problem before you can try and come up with a solution.
What's going on at the moment is a problem has been identified and people are coming up with the solutions without knowing what's causing the problem.

For example in the stat you posted the conclusion people are drawing from that is the cause is racism.
I know this is not the case but just to demonstrate the problem with univariate analysis what if everyone one of those black people killed was killed by a black civilian or black police officer then you couldn't attribute the cause to racism.

I am not saying racism doesn't exist nor that it isn't a big problem,just that before we initiate solutions we first need to correctly identify the problem.

 

[Deleted member 46623]

I said "so, are people saying white lives don't matter?"...get it correct. Ya like a dog with a f***ing bone.

No, I got it correct. I copied and pasted from post 422. I even got the number of question marks correct.

You said "So, people saying white lives don't matter??????" And that might be what you think you are hearing, or what you want people to be saying, but nobody is saying that white lives don't matter. Literally, nobody.

 

[The Fish]

I'll pass as it sounds thoroughly depressing.

Personally I try not to take the dark side social media as a reflection of real life. As for the "I'm not racist, but... crowd" unless they are practising racism, I'm not sure what measures should be put into place to change it, especially not instantaneously.

Maybe I'm wrong and there actually is a widespread problem here, it would make more sense to me had it been brought up correctly prior to a movement about American police.

Brought up Correctly?

How do you suggest that a group that have suffered prejudice for centuries get equality 'correctly'?
I've seen public appeals, I've seen silent vigils, I've seen respectful non-violent protests. And yet, still racism.

I don't think this country is racist or at least it's not compared to everywhere else.. There are no rights afforded to white people that are not afforded to black people.
That's not to say there are not any amount of people that live in the UK that are racist just that the nation as a whole isn't.

If you're naive as to think simply codifying laws against racism is enough, I point you to the troubles our friends across the pond are having. The document that founded their country states "All men are created equal", and yet... still racism. I've never suffered racism, but every non-white person I know has. Every single one. And these aren't people who grew up in the 50s,60s & 70s, these are my contemporaries. So it's not like the problem is going anywhere.

Oh and Brexit hasn't helped, nor Trump.

All this white privilege stuff in my opinion is nonsense. It's group privilege, culture privilege not white privilege.

And which ethnicity do you guess makes up those groups, those cultures, that are privileged?

Maybe privilege is a troubling term, how about White Advantage?

If you don't see racism in this country, I'd suggest you're not looking hard enough. It doesn't have to be pissed up Britain First neanderthals at a Free Tommy rally, it can just be some unknown lass, in a club, assuming your mate sells drugs because he's black.

 

[woodlebert]

It appears a bit sweeping in my opinion.

Try this although I don't agree with everything said.

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Yes it's a 1 minute video on social media so can't go into lots of detail. I mean it's a good overview of what the fuss is about, whatever one thinks of it

 

[Mickdundee]

His father was German, his mother was from peru, notice you left that out.

I don’t think I needed to. You said he was Hispanic, I was merely pointing out he wasn’t 100% Hispanic. If anyone was leaving details out it was you.

He was part of the neighbourhood watch, he conftonted martin who attecked zimmerman first, and hed the head injurys to prove it. He shot martin in self defence under the stupid florida stand your ground law.

He was unarmed and running back to his step mum’s home. There’s no proof of what actually happened other than Zimmerman’s version of events. There were no witnesses and Martin is dead.

 

[Coeus]

Yes it's a 1 minute video on social media so can't go into lots of detail. I mean it's a good overview of what the fuss is about, whatever one thinks of it

I understand, it's just sweeping statements without explanation, rebuttal or example aren't ideal. I dont really know what to take from it.

Do I assume he is right or require further information?

 

[themanagersnot2blame]

It's a statement showing that you value those things. I am proud to be my father's son because he was good man and I'm happy to be associated with him. As opposed to I'm ashamed to be my father's son because he was Fred West.

The pride/ shame thing doesn’t add anything. I don’t believe Fred West’s son (if he has one) should be ashamed to be his son - his actions aren’t his fault.

You can simply say your dad was a Great man that you respected and loved, the other guy can simply say his dad was a hideous monster.

 

[Lionel Hutzz]

Some people on here need to have a word. In context "white lives matter" was a pretty dumb thing to do and don't understand why the guy did it.

However would have been class if it was an "all lives matter RIP Reading 3".

I've yet to see any way any employer or public service mistreats black people in this country. Yes theres the odd racist thug but how many of them have any influence in society. Extremely rare anyone black is randomly murdered for being black. A big case in this area at the moment involves black people killing a white man and no one is suggesting thats racist. People can't have it both ways

 

[Coeus]

Brought up Correctly?

How do you suggest that a group that have suffered prejudice for centuries get equality 'correctly'?
I've seen public appeals, I've seen silent vigils, I've seen respectful non-violent protests. And yet, still racism.

Reported and highlighted.

I'm sorry if I have missed the public appeals, silent vigils and non violent protests here. Sign of the times but if you can provide specifics on what they are about, I'd be happy to try to educate myself further.

 

[AndyH]

If you're naive as to think simply codifying laws against racism is enough, I point you to the troubles our friends across the pond are having. The document that founded their country states "All men are created equal", and yet... still racism. I've never suffered racism, but every non-white person I know has. Every single one. And these aren't people who grew up in the 50s,60s & 70s, these are my contemporaries. So it's not like the problem is going anywhere.

Oh and Brexit hasn't helped, nor Trump.

I didn't say it was enough, everybody should always strive to be better.
I was just saying I don't think the UK as a country discriminates against other races or feels they are inferior.
Like I said there are any amount of racist people living in the UK i'm not saying there are not

 

[JXDD]

Some people on here need to have a word. In context "white lives matter" was a pretty dumb thing to do and don't understand why the guy did it.

However would have been class if it was an "all lives matter RIP Reading 3".

I've yet to see any way any employer or public service mistreats black people in this country. Yes theres the odd racist thug but how many of them have any influence in society. Extremely rare anyone black is randomly murdered for being black. A big case in this area at the moment involves black people killing a white man and no one is suggesting thats racist. People can't have it both ways

Surely people cannot be this blind/naive.

 

[rubberface]

No, I got it correct. I copied and pasted from post 422. I even got the number of question marks correct.

You said "So, people saying white lives don't matter??????" And that might be what you think you are hearing, or what you want people to be saying, but nobody is saying that white lives don't matter. Literally, nobody.

..so why has Darren Bent went off on one about the banner?

 

[Lionel Hutzz]

Surely people cannot be this blind/naive.

Go on then name one I can't think of any

 

[parm]

black lives matter said the black man
white lives matter said the racist

 

[superdougle]

It was sang in honour to Martin Offiah because his nick name was chariots due to his speed (chariots of fire)
I don't see why that's questionable, Martin as a black player didn't take offence i don't see why anyone else should.
I very much doubt anyone or very few singing it would know it was written by a plantation slave (I didn't) and even knowing that I still don't see a problem. I think it's a bit of stretch to imply someone singing that song is in some way racist or supporting slavery.
This kind of thing divides not unites in my opinion.

bet less than 1% of the uk knew it’s origin prior to the blm movement

 

[gavrocks]

Why do you need to be proud to be British? Would you be ashamed to be Canadian, Hungarian, Kenyan or Brazilian?
You are who you are, you were born British (or were made so via an application) it’s not an achievement - why would you be proud of something you are by default and haven’t done anything to achieve. Are you proud to have brown hair, blue eyes, a birth mark on your shoulder?
My take on pride is that in order for it to have any real meaning there would need to be an opposite outcome that you have managed to avoid whereby you would feel shame if you hadn’t.

I'm proud to be English and born in county durham what is wrong with that

 

[woodlebert]

I understand, it's just sweeping statements without explanation, rebuttal or example aren't ideal. I dont really know what to take from it.

Do I assume he is right or require further information?

It's just context for this thread. People have been asking various questions about "black lives matter" and "white lives matter" etc. I'm not saying it's an answer, job done. I'm just adding it in because I thought it was helpful shared context

 

[JXDD]

Go on then name one I can't think of any

Well first of all, you say that "I've yet to see any way any employer or public service mistreats black people in this country", and/or seem to be suggesting that racism can only be demonstrated by way of physical violence/murders of members of the opposite race, which is obviously completely untrue. But pick a category:

Police treatment:

- Black people arrested at more than 3 x the rate of white people;
- Four times more likely than average to be physically restrained, six times more likely to be hit with a firearm/restraint, and seven times more likely to be shot by the police.
- Almost TEN times more likely to be subject to a stop and search by the police.

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Economic/employment treatment:

- 70% of BAME workers reporting racist treatment at work in the last 5 years.
10% less likely to be in employment than white people.
- 9% less earnings p/h then white people.
- 35% more likely to be overlooked for a job opportunity than white people.

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Social treatment:

- 30% more likely to be accused of shoplifting.
- 20% more likely to be refused access to a restaurant, bar or club.

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Ignoring all of the above, and assuming that only 'outright' examples of violence/hostility count as per your post, are you genuinely saying that you don't think, for example):

- that football has a racism problem (racist chanting in the premier league/globally, racist incidents on the rise at grassroots level)

- that the UK has a problem with racist violence (50,000 rise in racist hate crimes since 2013)

- that black people don't face day-to-day discrimination based on their personal experiences/interactions (they do, my black mates have told me/I've been there).

What about the above do you think is acceptable/isn't a problem because 'some black men killed a white guy in the area recently'?