BBC: Why is heroin killing so many people?

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Some Random Guy said:
How can we stop the problem earlier if they aren't known until they are already on the slide?
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the point i was trying to make was it's a slope, not a cliff. imo we should be doing more to identify and help them as soon as possible. once they are identified as being on that slide we (the state) should be helping them (whether that's being cruel to be kind or not i don't know)
 


Tadger said:
No, but they make the conscious decision to take a drug that they know is both highly chemically and mentally addictive.
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So?

I make a decision to drink lager.

I used to smoke.

As a young'un I dabbled with drugs such as cannabis, Ecstacy, and coke.

Loads of people end up with massive addictions (with physically or psychosomatically). I didn't, go me.

Does my experience matter, not really, the conscious choice argument doesn't mean anything.

The fact they made the conscious decision to take a drug that they know is both highly chemically and mentally addictive is irrelevant.

We can't just do nothing about opiate and crack addicts, not just for their own well being, we need something in place to lower the problems caused to the people around them in society and the financial burden to the tax payer.
 
theinediblebulk said:
I'm still convinced the best way to do this is to kill the market. And you do that by taking it's customer base away. And you can achieve that by prescribing heroin to full on junkies. And I'm even more convinced that if this was in place years ago, people like me wouldn't have got caught up in it. Thankfully, I survived it. Fair few of my old mates didn't.

To a certain degree, I'll accept the statement that we all brought it on ourselves through making bad decisions. But what about their families? Is it right for their Mam and Dad to be going through that type of trauma because their kid made a bad decision? Is it even fair to stigmatise and exclude people for their entire life who must have been in a canny low place who go to heroin in the first place? Not for me it isn't and it's horrible looking at the destruction it causes knowing there is a solution that would help to reduce this. But because the solution isn't popular to a lot of people, we'll just keep racking up the misery and the deaths instead.
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Well done for getting of it. I'm not completely against prescribing heroin to users, administering it somewhere safe etc. The issues I see with that are that the addicts and users I speak to use as much as they can get their hands on- they say that they'll buy as many bags as they can afford or tick on for so prescribing a dose or two a day would help them but they'd still go elsewhere as well.
 
Horatio Pugwash said:
the point i was trying to make was it's a slope, not a cliff. imo we should be doing more to identify and help them as soon as possible. once they are identified as being on that slide we (the state) should be helping them (whether that's being cruel to be kind or not i don't know)
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I get your point, I just don't know how we can hook them into treatment earlier than we do (even if services had the money to do so, they don't).

18-23 tonnes of heroin enters the UK every year. Most of it comes from Afghanistan. We've been in Afghanistan for over 15 years, I refuse to believe we couldn't find an affordable, sustainable source to provide a treatment service that was more effective than we have right now.
 
Some Random Guy said:
I get your point, I just don't know how we can hook them into treatment earlier than we do (even if services had the money to do so, they don't).

18-23 tonnes of heroin enters the UK every year. Most of it comes from Afghanistan. We've been in Afghanistan for over 15 years, I refuse to believe we couldn't find an affordable, sustainable source to provide a treatment service that was more effective than we have right now.
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Maybe another approach, offer lighter sentences to offendants if they are identified as at risk of being on the start of that slope. With regular checks and support try to stop it early.
Maybe not just treatment, stop all access to drugs when serving time in prison.
Random drug tests alongside targeted drug tests. Anyone caught with drugs in their system gets another two years or sarts the sentence again or something along those lines.
 
[QUOTE="Some Random Guy, post: 26368215, member: 32384]



I can understand why someone would be against society "paying for people to take heroin". I'd argue we already do though, in crime and disorder costs, in increased insurance premiums, in the burden to social services, in the cost to NHS and third sector commissioned contracts, in prison services, in benefits etc.

Let's say right now it costs society £50k a year (number pulled out of my arse ) to pay for a smack head that goes out mugging grannies, shoplifting, and burgling houses to pay a criminal for drugs. Surely it's better for society to spend £25k a year (again, number pulled out of my arse) to pay for a smack head that doesn't goes out mugging grannies, shoplifting, and burgling houses to pay a criminal for drugs because they are covered?

It's not ideal by a long shot, it seems like a model that could be better for everyone apart from criminals.
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I'll just do a snippet because I've just got in and want dinner but will revisit later.
I keep seeing this, it costs us x amount and if we do this for them it would save x amount and only cost us this much.
What's to say that they won't just continue to thieve, rob and generally be a blight on the arsehole of society because they want money for some other spurious need anyway even with a morning dose of their favourite fix. Maybe they'll think you know what I've had me heroin, I fancy getting pissed or stoned on some weed for the rest of the day after I come down, oh bollocks got no money what will I do?

I wonder what the % of heroin addicts are that were just wranguns even before injecting. This attitude of it's purely the heroin that makes them do such things and if it were not for that they'd be pillars of the community is barmy at best
 
pavarotti1980 said:
So is excess alcohol, sports injuries, car crashes. Shall we stop help for every person?

ignoring the issue actually creates bigger problems in the long term which are a drain on finances, & personnel never mind the emotional cost to the patients and their families and the wider implications including crime
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people who are in car crashes/or sports injuries dont go robbing old grannies so they can have a crash or a hamstring pull mate :rolleyes: alkies might though ;)
 
Some Random Guy said:
I get your point, I just don't know how we can hook them into treatment earlier than we do (even if services had the money to do so, they don't).

18-23 tonnes of heroin enters the UK every year. Most of it comes from Afghanistan. We've been in Afghanistan for over 15 years, I refuse to believe we couldn't find an affordable, sustainable source to provide a treatment service that was more effective than we have right now.
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Does this not worry you mate?

Looks like the big boys are the "real" drug dealers. I read summat daft that prior to our invasion of Afghanistan, it accounted for about 10% of the worlds heroin. Now its about 90%. With troops guarding poppy fields under some bullshit excuse.

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BigPete said:
Hence why I said they need to legalise drugs.
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I'm up for this like. I cant wait to add it to the revenue stream.

I come across shit loads of addicts everyday. The vast majority of them are scumbags. Were they scumbags before heroin? Not sure. Am I up for these clinics? Again not sure. I am up for the discussion though.
 
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just lock them up in a cell for a while with nothing except food/water,they will be off the smack & its there own fault anyway so if owt happens fuck them, just parasites , nothing more,nothing less, how many times do you see someone in the papers trying raise cash for treatment for there bairn & these fuckers go on like this? fuck them all, if i was walking along the street & seen someone on the deck i would say " heart attack,? , no hes od`d, i would just drag him to the gutter where he/she belongs & let nature take its course, detest druggies me like
 
Some Random Guy said:
So?

I make a decision to drink lager.

I used to smoke.

As a young'un I dabbled with drugs such as cannabis, Ecstacy, and coke.

Loads of people end up with massive addictions (with physically or psychosomatically). I didn't, go me.

Does my experience matter, not really, the conscious choice argument doesn't mean anything.

The fact they made the conscious decision to take a drug that they know is both highly chemically and mentally addictive is irrelevant.

We can't just do nothing about opiate and crack addicts, not just for their own well being, we need something in place to lower the problems caused to the people around them in society and the financial burden to the tax payer.
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It makes them incredibly f***ing stupid though.
 
StripedPaddy said:
Because it’s not good for you I would suggest.
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So? If I want I can go home and eat a mountain of sugar and lard sandwiches then wash it down with all the whiskey I can afford while chain smoking.

I would argue it's a lot safer for the addict to go to a clean environment, with sterile needles, provided by trained staff, who have quality controlled heroin, supplied in safe doses.

I would also argue that it would be a lot safer for you and I as we would be less likely to get stabbed for our iAndroid phone that cost hundreds so an addict can get about for £20 worth of street drugs.

I believe that sort of paradigm shift would be better than what we have right now.
 
Horatio Pugwash said:
they're only 110 places below singapore in the list_of_countries_by_prevalence_of_opiates_use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_prevalence_of_opiates_use

although i will admit i couldn't find any more up to date figures
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They effectively decriminalised heroin 15 or so years ago because the problem was so bad. Its a medical issue now. Its no silver bullet but the number of addicts has halved, the number of overdoses has plummeted and the criminal element all but virtually gone.

Who would have thought managing the situation would be successful.

https://m.mic.com/articles/120403/1...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.YS7Q1WYiu
 
Tadger said:
It makes them incredibly f***ing stupid though.
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Agreed. Half the country has below average intelligence, they're in good company.

Can't do much about stupidity unfortunately, we could try an approach that seems likely to reduce the burden on police, prison, NHS, and local government though.
 
Lonz said:
Most don't want to be addicted.
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So why give them it free in a safe environment? Surely getting them off it is better?

Cockney Mackem said:
Imagine if clean heroin was available on prescription from the doctor, on condition of being part of a rehab programme, and some of the world's most brutal and powerful gangsters no longer had a revenue stream to justify the cost, risk and trouble of smuggling heroin? Heroin it was harder to get anyway because world governments took control of the poppy crops?
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I thought the NHS was the biggest buyer of opium?
 
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Boz33 said:
I'll just do a snippet because I've just got in and want dinner but will revisit later.
I keep seeing this, it costs us x amount and if we do this for them it would save x amount and only cost us this much.
What's to say that they won't just continue to thieve, rob and generally be a blight on the arsehole of society because they want money for some other spurious need anyway even with a morning dose of their favourite fix. Maybe they'll think you know what I've had me heroin, I fancy getting pissed or stoned on some weed for the rest of the day after I come down, oh bollocks got no money what will I do?

I wonder what the % of heroin addicts are that were just wranguns even before injecting. This attitude of it's purely the heroin that makes them do such things and if it were not for that they'd be pillars of the community is barmy at best
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1) The article in the op talks about crime reduction in counties that have adopted similar models. Read the article.

2) My examples there were far from turning people like this into pillars of the community. It was turning violent drug addict offenders into drug addicts that cost less and were less likely to offend.

3) If you're going to snip quotes do it right. :p
 
the boot said:
So why give them it free in a safe environment? Surely getting them off it is better?
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It is indeed, that's not working though.

A safe environment with quality controlled substances seems like it could be a path of less harm, for both the user and society, and will probably be more cost effective to the whole system (so, you spent more of drug services but see savings in police and prison costs).

pavarotti1980 said:
Self inflicted though.

Also not all heroin addicts are on the Rob either
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This is true. There'll be loads of people who manage to hold down jobs and do it behind closed doors.
 
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