Autumn booster jabs

WattStaxy

Midfield
I know people im my own life who have become seriously ill shortly after taking the jab, including a family member who has had three extended stays in hospital since. This is an internal bleeding issue. A friend younger than me has developed blood clots. Both known side effects. I have not seen anyone drop dead personally but it is happening. The amount of 'died suddenly' news articles is unusually high, we know excess deaths are up as are deaths at home. You will also note in my post i said it may be a coincidence it might not be. I presume you would just prefer to plough on regardless as well rather than stop and investigate properly?
Coincidence Theorist?
 


I know people im my own life who have become seriously ill shortly after taking the jab, including a family member who has had three extended stays in hospital since. This is an internal bleeding issue. A friend younger than me has developed blood clots. Both known side effects. I have not seen anyone drop dead personally but it is happening. The amount of 'died suddenly' news articles is unusually high, we know excess deaths are up as are deaths at home. You will also note in my post i said it may be a coincidence it might not be. I presume you would just prefer to plough on regardless as well rather than stop and investigate properly?
Plough on regardless? Unless there are serious widespread concerns which can be directly attributed to the vaccine then it should continue as planned because as you say it might be a coincidence it might not. If they stopped drugs and vaccines because of ADRs then nobody would ever receive a drug again. Maybe we should withdraw chemo from cancer patients because they might get some pretty serious side effects 🤷‍♂️

I assume that yellow cards were completed by all those affected
 

Kermit

Central Defender
Plough on regardless? Unless there are serious widespread concerns which can be directly attributed to the vaccine then it should continue as planned because as you say it might be a coincidence it might not. If they stopped drugs and vaccines because of ADRs then nobody would ever receive a drug again. Maybe we should withdraw chemo from cancer patients because they might get some pretty serious side effects 🤷‍♂️

I assume that yellow cards were completed by all those affected
Yes because cancer is exactly like covid isnt it? And the risk / benefit calculation with regards any intervention.

The yellow card was completed in the case of the family member. Im not sure about my mate. I advised him to but unsure if he did.
 
Yes because cancer is exactly like covid isnt it? And the risk / benefit calculation with regards any intervention.

The yellow card was completed in the case of the family member. Im not sure about my mate. I advised him to but unsure if he did.
The principle you are suggesting is the same. Adverse events = stop using
 

Kermit

Central Defender
So whereabouts do you draw your line
This is ridiculous. If you are seriously comparing cancer which, according to Cancer Research UK, has only a 50% survival rate for 10 or more years (all forms), to a flu with an IFR of around 0.1%, and chemotherapy with a novel mRNA based vaccine with no long term data and an already alarming safety profile, im not wasting my time mate.
 
This is ridiculous. If you are seriously comparing cancer which, according to Cancer Research UK, has only a 50% survival rate for 10 or more years (all forms), to a flu with an IFR of around 0.1%, and chemotherapy with a novel mRNA based vaccine with no long term data and an already alarming safety profile, im not wasting my time mate.
No I am asking what is the line in the sand with drugs to when the adverse event profile means it should be withdrawn

You seem a bit outraged by things which by your own admission "might be or might not be" related to the vaccine yet you have very little insight but decide to firmly jump into the camp of blaming the vaccine.
 
I am not a liar. I have seen the results of these in my own life. Look around you. Young people developing heart problems, dropping dead, blood clots and as we discussed the other day excess deaths higher now than during the peak pandemic years. It might just be coincidence it might not be. My point is, you dont even want to consider the possibility. This stopped being about science for the likes of yourself a long time ago. This is more a religion or a belief system. I would also suggest you stop paying attention to models and estimates. They are unscientific, unprovable nonsense. Mr Fegusons ludicrous estimates about the number of deaths we would face helped get us into this mess.

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever thought, "what if im wrong?". Has this ever even occurred to you? I have lost count of how many times i have asked myself this question, particularly at the start. The big difference between me and you is, i am desperate to be wrong and you are desperate to be right. I would like nothing better than for all the conclusions ive reached to be wrong and for me to be ridiculed for the rest of my life. I wouldnt even delete my account on here. I wonder how you will react when this finally collapses.
If you're not lying then you're leaping to conclusions and being reckless with the truth. As discussed, I work in health statistics. I have seen no evidence on young people "developing heart problems", "dropping dead", or "developing blood clots" at a rate that is higher than 'normal' and attributable to vaccination. Please can you provide your evidence, and by evidence I don't mean what you have observed personally, because that's a heavily biased and subjective account.

I have already explained to you why we are currently running an excess of deaths. You claim excess deaths are higher than during peak pandemic years - this is a clever sentence designed to make it appear as if excess deaths are higher now than during the peak periods of the pandemic, but they're actually not. This is one reason why I call you a liar - you are deliberately reckless with the truth in order to mislead people. You wouldn't be if your arguments had any substance, but they don't.

You claim that I'm not about "science" but as far as I can tell, you have no scientific training, knowledge, qualifications or experience. You also don't follow any principles that would be considered scientific when you claim you have evidence. You make appeals to science without demonstrating any of the requisite values. For you to use terms such as "unscientific, unprovable nonsense" and then claim that vaccines are disastrous because of a handful of events you claim to have witnessed, is absolutely ludicrous.

You ask me have I ever thought "What if I'm wrong?". I have asked myself that, yes. Trying to prove oneself wrong is fundamental to the scientific method.

I must admit, I find it very interesting that you don't see your contradictions and hypocrisies. You don't apply any scientific principles to the things you post on here and the claims you make, but you rail at others for not being scientific and try and undermine other people who do take evidence-based approaches.

You incredibly try and claim humility when you say that you're desperate to prove yourself wrong, and then a few sentences later, you speak with the utmost of confidence when telling me that my whole world view about medicine and vaccination will collapse.

I'll keep returning to the Dunning-Kruger effect because you are almost a textbook example. Someone who has little knowledge but utter, supreme confidence. It's incredible.
 

Kermit

Central Defender
Its really tiring keep having to correct you when you either misunderstand or deliberately misrepresent what ive said. You are trying to twist what i said about excess deaths to try and score some sort of victory. Unfortunately it is clear what i was talking about as i directly referenced and posted this article from the telegraph. Its quite pathetic and tedious when you do this. Theres no way this can be you continually making errors so i can only assume its a deliberate ploy.

Crisis as excess deaths soar to levels higher than during Covid pandemic

Also can you try to make you replies more concise, as again its tiring answering about . In brief....

You didnt explain at all why we are experiencing excess deaths. You offered a few theories including 3000 excess deaths due to a heatwave. 3000 is a fraction of the excess deaths this year.

The study you referenced claiming how many lives saved is clearly unprovable, unscientific nonsense. It cannot be proven or disproven.

You say you regularly ask yourself if you are wrong, i note you didnt answer. I assume you have been correct on absolutely every aspect of the virus and the response.

I have to say your references to my suffering from Dunning - Kruger always make me chuckle. The irony of you throwing this accusation about is completely lost on you. You allegedly have a degree or Masters in Public Health, good on you. However in your eyes this makes you an expert in all aspects of epidemiology, virology and vaccinology, particularly with regards to covid. Infact you regularly dismiss the opinions of actual experts in these areas. I would also point out ive admitted to being wrong on two occasions. Not exactly the hallmark of someone who has succumbed to DK. In contrast i dont recall you admitting to even the possibility of being wrong.
 
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Its really tiring keep having to correct you when you either misunderstand or deliberately misrepresent what ive said. You are trying to twist what i said about excess deaths to try and score some sort of victory. Unfortunately it is clear what i was talking about as i directly referenced and posted this article from the telegraph. Its quite pathetic and tedious when you do this. Theres no way this can be you continually making errors so i can only assume its a deliberate ploy.

Crisis as excess deaths soar to levels higher than during Covid pandemic

Also can you try to make you replies more concise, as again its tiring answering about . In brief....

You didnt explain at all why we are experiencing excess deaths. You offered a few theories including 3000 excess deaths due to a heatwave. 3000 is a fraction of the excess deaths this year.

The study you referenced claiming how many lives saved is clearly unprovable, unscientific nonsense. It cannot be proven or disproven.

You say you regularly ask yourself if you are wrong, i note you didnt answer. I assume you have been correct on absolutely every aspect of the virus and the response.

I have to say your references to my suffering from Dunning - Kruger always make me chuckle. The irony of you throwing this accusation about is completely lost on you. You allegedly have a degree or Masters in Public Health, good on you. However in your eyes this makes you an expert in all aspects of epidemiology, virology and vaccinology, particularly with regards to covid. Infact you regularly dismiss the opinions of actual experts in these areas. I would also point out ive admitted to being wrong on two occasions. Not exactly the hallmark of someone who has succumbed to DK. In contrast i dont recall you admitting to even the possibility of being wrong.
You want concise? Sure here goes

1. You're not correcting me. You're the one twisting things, don't try and gaslight me. It doesn't work when I know what I'm talking about.

2. If it's tiring you're welcome not to answer. I'm sure you'll find the energy to spread more nonsense about the board, more misinformation and more things that aren't true. I am not going to stop correcting you when you spread misinformation, because that's what you want to happen. You want people to get tired of calling you out so that you have a free pass to post misinformation unchecked. I won't report your posts (unless they're actively harmfully misleading) but I will continue to correct you. You are under no obligation to reply and the ignore button is right there.

3. I did explain why we're experiencing excess deaths. In fact I went into great detail and sourced the data for you. I told you that COVID-19 deaths are a significant proportion of excess deaths. I didn't present a theory about heatwave deaths, I presented an ONS report detailing the impact of heatwaves on excess deaths. This is the second time you've dismissed it out of hand.

4. I don't think I'm wrong, no. I have been incorrect about things. I didn't think that initial reports of a novel respiratory virus would be particularly impactful considering the stated IFR was considerably less than SARS 2003, and I also thought - again, based on SARS 2003, that it would be over relatively quickly.

5. I don't think I'm an expert, despite the fact that yes, I have a masters degree in public health, and work in public health, with a specific focus on health statistics and intelligence. I have said on multiple occasions that I know "but a fraction" of what true subject matter experts know. This does however mean that I have been exposed to training and knowledge, and have gained experience, that others haven't - including yourself.

Trying to discuss this issue with you is like trying to discuss something with someone whose memory lasts only a day. You jump from topic to topic, from thread to thread, and seem to conveniently forget when things have been explained to you previously.
--

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person, and you're not an idiot because unlike the rest of the COVID sceptic folk on here, you're articulate and able to convey an argument, but your use of evidence is poor. It is heavily biased, and you pay far greater mind to unverified, narratives that play on emotions than you ought to.

I understand you've had family members impacted by side-effects from vaccination, and I have genuine sympathy for them and for you. I do my job because I care about people's health and I want everyone to have better health. I also understand that having experienced such things close to home, that may bias your viewpoint.

I am sure that I would feel less positive about the vaccination programme had it harmed me or my family.

However, I simply cannot agree when you post things like "the vaccine programme has been an absolute disaster" when it has objectively saved millions of lives through preventing severe symptoms.
 
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Kermit

Central Defender
You want concise? Sure here goes

1. You're not correcting me. You're the one twisting things, don't try and gaslight me. It doesn't work when I know what I'm talking about.

2. If it's tiring you're welcome not to answer. I'm sure you'll find the energy to spread more nonsense about the board, more misinformation and more things that aren't true. I am not going to stop correcting you when you spread misinformation, because that's what you want to happen. You want people to get tired of calling you out so that you have a free pass to post misinformation unchecked. I won't report your posts (unless they're actively harmfully misleading) but I will continue to correct you. You are under no obligation to reply and the ignore button is right there.

3. I did explain why we're experiencing excess deaths. In fact I went into great detail and sourced the data for you. I told you that COVID-19 deaths are a significant proportion of excess deaths. I didn't present a theory about heatwave deaths, I presented an ONS report detailing the impact of heatwaves on excess deaths. This is the second time you've dismissed it out of hand.

4. I don't think I'm wrong, no. I have been incorrect about things. I didn't think that initial reports of a novel respiratory virus would be particularly impactful considering the stated IFR was considerably less than SARS 2003, and I also thought - again, based on SARS 2003, that it would be over relatively quickly.

5. I don't think I'm an expert, despite the fact that yes, I have a masters degree in public health, and work in public health, with a specific focus on health statistics and intelligence. I have said on multiple occasions that I know "but a fraction" of what true subject matter experts know. This does however mean that I have been exposed to training and knowledge, and have gained experience, that others haven't - including yourself.

Trying to discuss this issue with you is like trying to discuss something with someone whose memory lasts only a day. You jump from topic to topic, from thread to thread, and seem to conveniently forget when things have been explained to you previously.
--

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bad person, and you're not an idiot because unlike the rest of the COVID sceptic folk on here, you're articulate and able to convey an argument, but your use of evidence is poor. It is heavily biased, and you pay far greater mind to unverified, narratives that play on emotions than you ought to.

I understand you've had family members impacted by side-effects from vaccination, and I have genuine sympathy for them and for you. I do my job because I care about people's health and I want everyone to have better health. I also understand that having experienced such things close to home, that may bias your viewpoint.

I am sure that I would feel less positive about the vaccination programme had it harmed me or my family.

However, I simply cannot agree when you post things like "the vaccine programme has been an absolute disaster" when it has objectively saved millions of lives through preventing severe symptoms.
Frijj mate. How am i gaslighting you? The original post is there with the article. Its there in black and white. You chose to say i meant something else then tell me im wrong about it. You said i was "technically" correct but was using some kind of word play. I wasnt, i was referring literally and directly to the article in question. The headline is "Crisis as excess deaths soar to levels higher than during Covid pandemic". You told me covid deaths account for a significant proportion of these excess deaths, but again this was already accounted for in the article. And you say it like arguing with a person with a short memory when arguing with me?

I think the way forward now is, i will await the next gaping hole to appear in the official narrative and then serve it up for you to deny. Rather than go over old ground i will just post new revelations as and when they pop up. I suspect your position will become increasingly difficult to defend. I might even throw the odd red herring in for my own amusement. :D

Until the next time.
 
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Frijj mate. How am i gaslighting you? The original post is there with the article. Its there in black and white. You chose to say i meant something else then tell me im wrong about it. You said i was "technically" correct but was using some kind of word play. I wasnt, i was referring literally and directly to the article in question. The headline is "Crisis as excess deaths soar to levels higher than during Covid pandemic". You told me covid deaths account for a significant proportion of these excess deaths, but again this was already accounted for in the article. And you say it like arguing with a person with a short memory when arguing with me?

I think the way forward now is, i will await the next gaping hole to appear in the official narrative and then serve it up for you to deny. Rather than go over old ground i will just post new revelations as and when they pop up. I suspect your position will become increasingly difficult to defend. I might even throw the odd red herring in for my own amusement. :D

Until the next time.
Yes, I saw and read The Telegraph article, and the first time you raised it I explained it. In fact I'll read it again to explain it to you, and perhaps this time we'll make a breakthrough in your understanding.

The Telegraph claim that during October 2022, excess deaths were higher than they were in both October 2020 and October 2021. This claim without context is misleading, because it makes assumptions and tries to convey a message that isn't accurate. I know that's what you're trying to do, because that's what The Telegraph are trying to do.

The context that you need to be aware of is that

a) 2020 and 2021 were not normal years where deaths were seasonally patterned as one might expect them to be, therefore month-on-month comparisons are not fair

b) COVID is responsible for a significant proportion of excess deaths, as are other causes. 2022 is itself, not a normal year, even if it feels like one. We discussed this recently, do you remember?

The most misleading statements, are the ones that are technically correct, but need context, because on the face of it, they sound right. They pass an initial sense check. It's like saying a midfielder who only plays backwards or sideways passes, is the best midfielder in the country because they have pass completion rate of 95%...they might be by that measure alone, but it needs that context. Don't you see?

I don't think I'll struggle to defend my position. The facts are in my favour, I have all the necessary skills and experience to understand it, and your challenges are rarely rooted in strongly-evidenced arguments. You present unverified stories as fact and rely on rehashing the arguments of crank, fringe doctors and right wing newspapers.

As I say, you're one of the more articulate and capable of the COVID sceptical brethren but because there's a lack of reliable evidence or credible voices on your side of the argument (I wonder why that is?) you're at a perpetual disadvantage.
 

Kermit

Central Defender
Yes, I saw and read The Telegraph article, and the first time you raised it I explained it. In fact I'll read it again to explain it to you, and perhaps this time we'll make a breakthrough in your understanding.

The Telegraph claim that during October 2022, excess deaths were higher than they were in both October 2020 and October 2021. This claim without context is misleading, because it makes assumptions and tries to convey a message that isn't accurate. I know that's what you're trying to do, because that's what The Telegraph are trying to do.

The context that you need to be aware of is that

a) 2020 and 2021 were not normal years where deaths were seasonally patterned as one might expect them to be, therefore month-on-month comparisons are not fair

b) COVID is responsible for a significant proportion of excess deaths, as are other causes. 2022 is itself, not a normal year, even if it feels like one. We discussed this recently, do you remember?

The most misleading statements, are the ones that are technically correct, but need context, because on the face of it, they sound right. They pass an initial sense check. It's like saying a midfielder who only plays backwards or sideways passes, is the best midfielder in the country because they have pass completion rate of 95%...they might be by that measure alone, but it needs that context. Don't you see?


I don't think I'll struggle to defend my position. The facts are in my favour, I have all the necessary skills and experience to understand it, and your challenges are rarely rooted in strongly-evidenced arguments. You present unverified stories as fact and rely on rehashing the arguments of crank, fringe doctors and right wing newspapers.

As I say, you're one of the more articulate and capable of the COVID sceptical brethren but because there's a lack of reliable evidence or credible voices on your side of the argument (I wonder why that is?) you're at a perpetual disadvantage.
Absolutely incredible. Translation: kermit was right. He said literally what the article did which was factually correct. Ill try and add my own opinion about the context to make it seem like hes wrong.
Month on month comparisons with 2020 and 2021 are not fair.

Ok, but the article states deaths are also running higher than the five-year pre-Covid October average from 2015 to 2019.

This is your fatal flaw. Just admit i am correct. Why try and twist things until they fit?
 
Absolutely incredible. Translation: kermit was right. He said literally what the article did which was factually correct. Ill try and add my own opinion about the context to make it seem like hes wrong.
Month on month comparisons with 2020 and 2021 are not fair.

Ok, but the article states deaths are also running higher than the five-year pre-Covid October average from 2015 to 2019.

This is your fatal flaw. Just admit i am correct. Why try and twist things until they fit?
What part of “2022 is not a normal year” are you not understanding?

COVID-19 appeared on 29,996 death certificates registered in 2022 YTD.

The cumulative total of excess deaths this year is 29,820.

COVID isn’t the “underlying” cause in all of those 29,996 deaths, but is the underlying cause in approximately 19,000 of them.

Simple maths of course, the real story is far more complex, but if there have been 29,820 excess deaths, and COVID has caused at least 19,000 deaths, then there’s about 64% of your excess.

Add in heatwaves, which the ONS report contributed approximately 3,000 excess deaths, then you’re at 74% of your excess.

I’m sure the other 26% will have a miscellany of causes, and yes part of that cause will be disruption to healthcare systems caused by lockdown.

It isn’t though, as you claimed, which is what started this exchange - due to the vaccine.

No reputable source is claiming this excess is due to the vaccine.
 

Q_Ball

Winger
What we’re finding is the virus is evolving around the immunity that’s been built up through vaccines.

The above is what virologists are currently saying, so what is the point of continuing with the roll out? Maybe it's better that we now learn to live with it better than we are doing, get more exercise and eat a better diet.
The NHS needs to get the waiting lists down and get people seen sooner than they are currently doing. There are people who are seriously ill who have far more problems than a sore throat a cough, and headache, which is what the bulk of current infections seem to be.
GPs need to get back into the surgeries and physically see examine and talk to patients imo.
Doesn’t make as much money as vaccines that though .. old school NHS stuff ! No let the NHS crumble and the privatisation come in where a lot of the politicians can award contracts and make money.
 

Kermit

Central Defender
What part of “2022 is not a normal year” are you not understanding?

COVID-19 appeared on 29,996 death certificates registered in 2022 YTD.

The cumulative total of excess deaths this year is 29,820.

COVID isn’t the “underlying” cause in all of those 29,996 deaths, but is the underlying cause in approximately 19,000 of them.

Simple maths of course, the real story is far more complex, but if there have been 29,820 excess deaths, and COVID has caused at least 19,000 deaths, then there’s about 64% of your excess.

Add in heatwaves, which the ONS report contributed approximately 3,000 excess deaths, then you’re at 74% of your excess.

I’m sure the other 26% will have a miscellany of causes, and yes part of that cause will be disruption to healthcare systems caused by lockdown.

It isn’t though, as you claimed, which is what started this exchange - due to the vaccine.

No reputable source is claiming this excess is due to the vaccine.
That 2022 is not a normal year is the point of the article. Its abnormal as excess deaths are unusually high with no satisfactory explanation. You are just making yourself look ridiculous here. Im ending this here. You are going to dislocate something with all this twisting and turning, its incredible to see. Its the same tactic youve used several times before, you try to bend the meaning of words or outright redefine them as we saw with the Pfizer CEO texts. You tell me things ive said are only "technically true". You misrepresent what ive actually said then tell me what youve said i said is wrong. Anything to avoid being wrong. Even when i asked you if you ever thought you were wrong you still couldnt bring yourself to use the word and opted for 'incorrect".
 
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That 2022 is not a normal year is the point of the article. Its abnormal as excess deaths are unusually high with no satisfactory explanation. You are just making yourself look ridiculous here. Im ending this here. You are going to dislocate something with all this twisting and turning, its incredible to see. Its the same tactic youve used several times before, you try to bend the meaning of words or outright redefine them as we saw with the Pfizer CEO texts. You tell me things ive said are only "technically true". You misrepresent what ive actually said then tell me what youve said i said is wrong. Anything to avoid being wrong. Even when i asked you if you ever thought you were wrong you still couldnt bring yourself to use the word and opted for 'incorrect".
It is the point of the article yes, but you’ve been using articles such as that to suggest that the excess is because of vaccinations. You are the one who claimed young people are dropping dead all over the place.

I’m calmly taking apart your arguments and refuting them with evidence common sense. I appreciate that approach might seem unusual to you.

You can “end it” whenever you like, but as you can’t help yourself but post misinformation and fake news that you think supports your argument, you’ll keep posting it, and I’ll keep replying to it.

As mentioned you don’t have to reply or even read my replies. The ignore button is right there.
 

Kermit

Central Defender
It is the point of the article yes, but you’ve been using articles such as that to suggest that the excess is because of vaccinations. You are the one who claimed young people are dropping dead all over the place.

I’m calmly taking apart your arguments and refuting them with evidence common sense. I appreciate that approach might seem unusual to you.

You can “end it” whenever you like, but as you can’t help yourself but post misinformation and fake news that you think supports your argument, you’ll keep posting it, and I’ll keep replying to it.

As mentioned you don’t have to reply or even read my replies. The ignore button is right there.
Thats right Muhammad Ali. Keep telling yourself that. 🤦‍♀️
 

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