4th Ashes Test - Old Trafford

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

Indeed. Still below Broad then

Of course, I was only joking.

Ahead of Jim though.

That’s a long tail

It certainly is - but I think the Aussies have worked Woakes out and at the end of the day you've got to pick the best seam attack you can.

If you were ruthless, you might consider dropping Leach for Ali who has found some form and confidence with the bat (though don't think he's done much with the ball). But left-arm orthodox has done quite well at OT historically - I went to one test there where Panesar and Harmison got all the wickets. I think you have to back Leach/Archer to try and repeat that.

If we had lost this game there would have been a lot of changes but there will be barely any and the likes of Bairstow, Buttler will keep their places and maybe even Roy. They wont bring an unproven, uncapped player into an Ashes Test at this stage and the fact there there has barely been any 4 day cricket in the last 2 months make it even more unlikely. Rightly or wrongly I think the only change they will make will be Jimmy for Woakes if fit. They may look to solve the Roy problem but I don't think they will go for a Sibley or a Crawley for the reasons given above. They will either:

1) Keep the order the same and take the view that having come this far with Roy he may come off once in the remaining tests and make a telling knock. I think they will do this.
2) Swap Denly and Roy around.
3) Open with Denly and bring Pope into the middle order - Maybe my choice but it would be harsh on Denly having done well at 4 in his last innings.
3) Drop Roy and replace him with a player that has played against Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood before such as Vince or Stoneman who are capable of getting a moderate knock against their bowling.

No easy solution but they wont throw in an uncapped player IMO.

Actually think you've missed what they'll actually do: back Roy and drop Denly for Pope.

 

[rentaghost]

Of course, I was only joking.

Ahead of Jim though.


It certainly is - but I think the Aussies have worked Woakes out and at the end of the day you've got to pick the best seam attack you can.

If you were ruthless, you might consider dropping Leach for Ali who has found some form and confidence with the bat (though don't think he's done much with the ball). But left-arm orthodox has done quite well at OT historically - I went to one test there where Panesar and Harmison got all the wickets. I think you have to back Leach/Archer to try and repeat that.


Actually think you've missed what they'll actually do: back Roy and drop Denly for Pope.

The thought that they would drop a player that has scored an excellent 50 against the best fast bowling attack in the world for a promising young player that looked a little bit out of his depth last year is absurd. Pope might get selected he’s going to be great but I guarantee he won’t be playing at OT ahead of Denly.

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

The thought that they would drop a player that has scored an excellent 50 against the best fast bowling attack in the world for a promising young player that looked a little bit out of his depth last year is absurd.

Are they the best bowling attack? Reckon ours runs em close now we've got Jof and Jimmy on the pitch together hopefully.

Stewart was silver-tonguing it this way on the debate. He'd make a canny politician - but he was pushing the Surrey case and I think he is one of the few Directors of Cricket Ed Smith listens too. He was saying:

Go away for three days. Celebrate the incredible victory. But come back and be clear-sighted that remarkable though yesterday was, it wasn't as good as Friday was bad. It was essentially down to the brilliance of one man.

The question he then put was - do you pick someone who can grow, who may be able to get a ton, or do you pick someone whose ceiling is a streaky 50. It's not good enough - every test batsman needs to look like making a ton.

To be clear, I think they should drop Roy ahead of Denly. I'd drop both myself - and I'm not sure about Buttler (Stewart was actually pushing Denly to open, and swapping Roy in for Buttler) either, where I might turn to another Surrey player, Foakes.

But I just think they may not have the stones to drop Roy and I'm pretty certain Pope is coming in. Ignore last year, he just hit 200, the Oval test is just round the corner and he averages 60 odd in first class cricket. The lad is going to be a very successful England international and aye, I think they will throw him in. It's fine to throw people in - did Jonathan Trott no harm. They may just drop Roy though and put Denly up - it's definitely a more sensible choice. I just think, the dressing room boys club might do for Denly.

 

[rentaghost]

Are they the best bowling attack? Reckon ours runs em close now we've got Jof and Jimmy on the pitch together hopefully.

Stewart was silver-tonguing it this way on the debate. He'd make a canny politician - but he was pushing the Surrey case and I think he is one of the few Directors of Cricket Ed Smith listens too. He was saying:

Go away for three days. Celebrate the incredible victory. But come back and be clear-sighted that remarkable though yesterday was, it wasn't as good as Friday was bad. It was essentially down to the brilliance of one man.

The question he then put was - do you pick someone who can grow, who may be able to get a ton, or do you pick someone whose ceiling is a streaky 50. It's not good enough - every test batsman needs to look like making a ton.

To be clear, I think they should drop Roy ahead of Denly. I'd drop both myself - and I'm not sure about Buttler (Stewart was actually pushing Denly to open, and swapping Roy in for Buttler) either, where I might turn to another Surrey player, Foakes.

But I just think they may not have the stones to drop Roy and I'm pretty certain Pope is coming in. Ignore last year, he just hit 200, the Oval test is just round the corner and he averages 60 odd in first class cricket. The lad is going to be a very successful England international and aye, I think they will throw him in. It's fine to throw people in - did Jonathan Trott no harm. They may just drop Roy though and put Denly up - it's definitely a more sensible choice. I just think, the dressing room boys club might do for Denly.

Time will tell but I think you are looking into it a bit too deeply. The have invested in Denly and won’t drop him after a breakthrough against high quality bowling. He is test match ready for OT. I


watched a lot of Popes 200 last week and it was a great knock but on a flat track against a weak and tired Hants attack. I wouldn’t pick him for the next test because I don’t think he has had enough preparation to go straight into that attack. He would be in my team after the Ashes come what may and i think he will be in the squad for OT but I think they will either stick with the same or move Denly up.

 

[TopCat]

Current forecast has rain on days 1,3,5

Poor planning having a test match in Manchester in September mind

Small matter of a World Cup and an Ashes series in the same summer

 

[smoker]

Burns
Sibley/Browne/Abell/Lees/whichever opener is in the best nick and is up for it
Denly
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Curran
Woakes
Archer
Broad
Leach

Not convinced Anderson is fit

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

Burns
Sibley/Browne/Abell/Lees/whichever opener is in the best nick and is up for it
Denly
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Curran
Woakes
Archer
Broad
Leach

Not convinced Anderson is fit

Smuggling Curran in there instead of Buttler might be a clever shout if we're 75-25 with Anderson. That way even if Jimmy can only bowl a few, you still have four who can.

Smith will not drop Buttler though.

Also, you having Denly now. Don't fancy Pope?

 

[rentaghost]

Burns
Sibley/Browne/Abell/Lees/whichever opener is in the best nick and is up for it
Denly
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Curran
Woakes
Archer
Broad
Leach

Not convinced Anderson is fit

They 100 pc won’t select an uncapped opener that has played next to no four day cricket in 2 months into the middle of an Ashes series to face that Australian attack. Won’t happen. They won’t in a million years pick 5 seamers either.

 

[Bungo Bill]

As a poster said earlier, if Anderson comes in for Woakes I can see the selectors dropping Leach for Moeen to strengthen the batting. Not something I'd do mind.

 

[wrighty]

Of course, I was only joking.

Ahead of Jim though.


It certainly is - but I think the Aussies have worked Woakes out and at the end of the day you've got to pick the best seam attack you can.

If you were ruthless, you might consider dropping Leach for Ali who has found some form and confidence with the bat (though don't think he's done much with the ball). But left-arm orthodox has done quite well at OT historically - I went to one test there where Panesar and Harmison got all the wickets. I think you have to back Leach/Archer to try and repeat that.


Actually think you've missed what they'll actually do: back Roy and drop Denly for Pope.

You’re right about them having worked Woakes out- like they worked Moeen out.if the top 7 could be relied upon I’d be less concerned!

As a poster said earlier, if Anderson comes in for Woakes I can see the selectors dropping Leach for Moeen to strengthen the batting. Not something I'd do mind.

I love Moeen and he looked to have got a bit of confidence back the other night in t20- but that’s very different to this Aussie attack. Moeen had become a walking wicket and I’m not sure he currently offers a lot more with the bat than woakes.hes a better bat just short of confidence and form

 

[smoker]

Would be a bit of an anti climax following the heroics of yesterday if Australia go on to retain the Ashes.

Unless they sort the f***ing batting out and find some way to deal with Smith (and Labuschagne) it's still the most likely outcome TBF

As a poster said earlier, if Anderson comes in for Woakes I can see the selectors dropping Leach for Moeen to strengthen the batting. Not something I'd do mind.

That would beggar belief

They 100 pc won’t select an uncapped opener that has played next to no four day cricket in 2 months into the middle of an Ashes series to face that Australian attack. Won’t happen. They won’t in a million years pick 5 seamers either.

It's the team I would pick, not really arsed what you think.

Curran is a good bat and relieves onus on Stokes in bowling dept. Picking FC opener instead of Roy is a no brainer. Go Robson or Lyth if being 'uncapped' is an issue.

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

You’re right about them having worked Woakes out- like they worked Moeen out.if the top 7 could be relied upon I’d be less concerned!

I love Moeen and he looked to have got a bit of confidence back the other night in t20- but that’s very different to this Aussie attack. Moeen had become a walking wicket and I’m not sure he currently offers a lot more with the bat than woakes.hes a better bat just short of confidence and form

Moeen is a match-winner, Leach will probably never be that in England in the same way. And the Aussies are stuffed full of left-handers.

But not for me, no. It would be an audacious gamble but I think Leach certainly deserves his chance and left-arm spinners have a good record at Old Trafford, I suspect - based purely on the fact it used to be a bit of a playground for Panesar. We'll have to take our chances with the long tail.

 

[rentaghost]

Unless they sort the f***ing batting out and find some way to deal with Smith (and Labuschagne) it's still the most likely outcome TBF


That would beggar belief


It's the team I would pick, not really arsed what you think.

Curran is a good bat and relieves onus on Stokes in bowling dept. Picking FC opener instead of Roy is a no brainer. Go Robson or Lyth if being 'uncapped' is an issue.

Picking a FC opener is not a no brainer because of the huge step up and lack of 4 day cricket recently and therefore lack of current form. FC openers just havent played any cricket and are ill prepared to face bowling of a much higher quality than they faced when they were last playing 4 day cricket.

So much muddled thinking amongst some about Curran. If hes not worth his place as a bowler only then hes not worth his place. Hes only worth his place as a bowler when conditions really suit and he can be selected as one of four seamers. He wold have bowled well at Headingley ironically but at the same time I saw him taking 1 for 100 against Hants on a flat deck when he got number 11 out. If you are playing him as a 5th bowler because he is a decent bat then he is only going to be taking overs off better bowlers. If you are playing 4 seamers workload can be managed easily. Ive heard a decent argument about him playing as one of 5 in case Anderson breaks down but they shouldnt be selecting on that basis IMO.

 

[dangermows]

If Anderson is fit he simply has to play.

Moeen is a match-winner, Leach will probably never be that in England in the same way. And the Aussies are stuffed full of left-handers.

But not for me, no. It would be an audacious gamble but I think Leach certainly deserves his chance and left-arm spinners have a good record at Old Trafford, I suspect - based purely on the fact it used to be a bit of a playground for Panesar. We'll have to take our chances with the long tail.

Panessar had success there largely down to the extra bounce. Not sure Leach will get that. Saying that, id still keep him in as I dont think Ali is ready despite finding a bit of form.

....but following yesterday I get a sense that this ‘team’ will get the job done from here.

Uh oh (The Ashes are gone).

 

[Bri]

Don't agree with bringing back Ali yet. Let him have a rest relatively speaking, outside the Test setup. Give him a chance to relax, do well in lower level cricket and restore his confidence and get his head right. But he should absolutely be in the winter squads.
I agree with many, they won't drop him after making the 50. The good news is that he seems to have the Test match attitude although not the game. Keep him for now.

I think they need to change and therefore Roy must go and not drop down the order. At present he has neither the game nor an attitude for Test match cricket - he does have the talent but whether he has a Test match future is up to him, but he shouldn't be given any more time to learn on the job.

I'd drop Buttler too tbf. Bring Foakes in. Bad news for Buttler because having dropped him there's no way for him to prove he's ready to come back because he doesn't play 1st class cricket - but again that's up him, he can fix that if he wants.

There was a good article in the Telegraph yesterday , reflecting on Stokes' inning and the different scoring rates and modes of play. It said he could and should move up to 5 from 6 on the basis of that he has the technical game, he has the proven mentality to dig in and bat time and defend and then when needed he can be explosive (which we've all seen). So whatever is tactically necessary in the game Stokes can do it and no 5 is a pivotal role.

(Besides, it's often been said that Stokes and Root bat well together, that another argument for Root to move down to 4 and I'd want that tbf, I'd never been keen on him moving up and I don't think it's worked.)

I'd go .......
Burns
Sibley
Denly
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Foakes
Broad
Archer
Leach
Anderson

I think we've only got two weak links in there and it's a shame they're together at 2 and 3.

 

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

If Anderson is fit he simply has to play.


Panessar had success there largely down to the extra bounce. Not sure Leach will get that. Saying that, id still keep him in as I dont think Ali is ready despite finding a bit of form.


Uh oh (The Ashes are gone).

This is absolutely true. No idea what Leach has in terms of top-spin and arm-balls but guess we will find out. However, we should be wary that this is Lyon's main method of dismissal - he mainly uses his stock offies to set people up for a top-spinner, which, as well as not spinning, bounces and accelerates with the arm. Exactly like Panesar in other words. If he reacts well to throwing away the Ashes - i.e. with determination - he will be a handful on this pitch, as will all their quicks because in recent years its the most Australian wicket in its offering of decent pace and bounce. Reverse swings a bit too, though not obviously with a wet outfield.

This will be a tough test. I would play Anderson certainly, but I would expect him to be largely a defensive bowler - it's not a renowned swinging wicket. Broad and Archer are likely to be our most dangerous bowlers given how it usually plays, but you just don't know. It was the one pitch that was a traditional ODI road in the World Cup.

I agree on Ali. Though I would definitely consider bringing him in for the Oval if we need to win that match due to this one being washed out. Leach offers control, but I can't see him pulling rabbits out the hat like Ali has done before - at that ground notably. In fact, irrc the Oval is where he got his hat-trick?

 

[stephen cartwright]

Imo there is no way Buttler will be dropped. That’s not say his form is poor, I just think he is rated as Workd Class and undroppable, like root, bairstow, stokes. Those are the core four running the team for me
As for Leach, I would be very surprised if he didn’t play as well. Bar Roy who the likely player to be left out then the rest will remain for the series.

Could we really risk jimmy after the first test and the ashes on the line? Playing with ten men has got us in the position we are.

This series is proving my old adage of who scores the most runs in for the last five wickets wins the games.

That has happened in both tests that were resolved

 

[Mainze]

As a poster said earlier, if Anderson comes in for Woakes I can see the selectors dropping Leach for Moeen to strengthen the batting. Not something I'd do mind.

Is be stunned if Mo was ever picked in the test side as the lone spinner again.

 

[Rip Van Fish]

If Jimmy is fit then he comes in for Woakes, no question.
I'd have the tail Archer 8, Leach 9, Broad 10 and Anderson 11.

Some tail that mind which is my only worry here.
Agree it should be Woakes to go as you need 20 wickets to win a game but we need em cheap

No way would I be dropping Chris Woakes at this stage.

Who would you leave out though if Jimmy is passed fit mate?

 

[TopCat]

B

Don't agree with bringing back Ali yet. Let him have a rest relatively speaking, outside the Test setup. Give him a chance to relax, do well in lower level cricket and restore his confidence and get his head right. But he should absolutely be in the winter squads.
I agree with many, they won't drop him after making the 50. The good news is that he seems to have the Test match attitude although not the game. Keep him for now.

I think they need to change and therefore Roy must go and not drop down the order. At present he has neither the game nor an attitude for Test match cricket - he does have the talent but whether he has a Test match future is up to him, but he shouldn't be given any more time to learn on the job.

I'd drop Buttler too tbf. Bring Foakes in. Bad news for Buttler because having dropped him there's no way for him to prove he's ready to come back because he doesn't play 1st class cricket - but again that's up him, he can fix that if he wants.

There was a good article in the Telegraph yesterday , reflecting on Stokes' inning and the different scoring rates and modes of play. It said he could and should move up to 5 from 6 on the basis of that he has the technical game, he has the proven mentality to dig in and bat time and defend and then when needed he can be explosive (which we've all seen). So whatever is tactically necessary in the game Stokes can do it and no 5 is a pivotal role.

(Besides, it's often been said that Stokes and Root bat well together, that another argument for Root to move down to 4 and I'd want that tbf, I'd never been keen on him moving up and I don't think it's worked.)

I'd go .......
Burns
Sibley
Denly
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Foakes
Broad
Archer
Leach
Anderson

I think we've only got two weak links in there and it's a shame they're together at 2 and 3.

Broad at 8 worries me loads