4th Ashes Test - Old Trafford

Voice of fair play said:
Not to mention our best player in the series by a mile, came straight out of white ball cricket.

So that’s the 3 best players in the series Smith, Stokes and Cummins straight out of white ball cricket and no red ball practice

And the other best player Broad hardly having any red ball practice!

But them four players never really influenced the Ashes, it was Matthew Wade with all his red ball practice!
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So just to clarify Wade is 7th highest scorer in the series?
hudson88 said:
You’re talking about the number 1 test batsman and number 1 test bowler though.

Our players are undercooked in red ball cricket. I’m not saying that’s what has lost us the Ashes, but red ball cricket is completely overlooked. Yes it’s been a big boost to white ball cricket and we won the World Cup which was superb, but when you see some of the cricket played by the likes of Roy, Buttler and Bairstow, who are all superb, world class white ball players, there’s too much of an overlap between the different formats. Some of the dismissals this series have been poor, as have certain selections, people seem to think white ball cricket can be transferred to the red ball. It can’t.

The players need to play more red ball cricket. However next year the ECB are introducing yet another format, which will lower the opportunity of our players to play red ball cricket even further. Mentalities need to change, but as someone mentioned above - players can either practice and polish their red ball skills, or play white ball cricket where the money is.

So no, it isn’t simply down to game time in the longer format. But as has been mentioned when was the last time Stokes was made available for Durham in the championship? Bairstow for Yorkshire? My opinion is red ball is being neglected.
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Spot on
 
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hudson88 said:
This is the top and bottom mind, they’ve got a batsman who will go down as one of the all times greats, and a very disciplined bowling attack with plans of how to get people out, executed by very, very good bowlers.
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It does help when you have a plan as well mind. Root was happy to persist with Leach doing at 7 an over yesterday. Paine immediately changed his spin bowler today and instantly got Leach out today.
 
Voice of fair play said:
Not to mention our best player in the series by a mile, came straight out of white ball cricket.

So that’s the 3 best players in the series Smith, Stokes and Cummins straight out of white ball cricket and no red ball practice

And the other best player Broad hardly having any red ball practice!

But them four players never really influenced the Ashes, it was Matthew Wade with all his red ball practice!
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Wade’s innings’ so far: 1, 110, 6, 1, 0, 33, 16, 34...

Test and ODI are two completely different specialities.

If it was a ODI, I would’ve fancied England to get a lot closer to Australia’s final innings total, today.
 
hudson88 said:
You’re talking about the number 1 test batsman and number 1 test bowler though.

Our players are undercooked in red ball cricket. I’m not saying that’s what has lost us the Ashes, but red ball cricket is completely overlooked. Yes it’s been a big boost to white ball cricket and we won the World Cup which was superb, but when you see some of the cricket played by the likes of Roy, Buttler and Bairstow, who are all superb, world class white ball players, there’s too much of an overlap between the different formats. Some of the dismissals this series have been poor, as have certain selections, people seem to think white ball cricket can be transferred to the red ball. It can’t.

The players need to play more red ball cricket. However next year the ECB are introducing yet another format, which will lower the opportunity of our players to play red ball cricket even further. Mentalities need to change, but as someone mentioned above - players can either practice and polish their red ball skills, or play white ball cricket where the money is.

So no, it isn’t simply down to game time in the longer format. But as has been mentioned when was the last time Stokes was made available for Durham in the championship? Bairstow for Yorkshire? My opinion is red ball is being neglected.
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Well yeah of course I see your point that our players could play more red ball cricket.

But in no way was that the main factor or even close in this series and the best players on either side came straight out of white ball cricket!

Most cricketing nations are playing less red ball cricket and more white ball cricket hence declining standards it’s not isolated to just England.
Thurston said:
Wade’s innings’ so far: 1, 110, 6, 1, 0, 33, 16, 34...

Test and ODI are two completely different specialities.

If it was a ODI, I would’ve fancied England to get a lot closer to Australia’s final innings total, today.
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Exactly he has one good score but is been hailed as a example of red ball practice making all the difference which is crap really,
 
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TopCat said:
Rubbing soil on the ball does nothing other than dry it out and improve grip. It really is no different to a spinner rubbing their hands in the dirt.
It didn't look good of course and Atherton handled it badly (as did Illingworth) but applying sandpaper to the surface of the ball makes a permanent change to it and influences how it behaves in the air

Atherton's punishment was for not being honest with the Match Referee not for the actual act of "polishing the ball with dirt"
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Fair enough - good response and explanation.
 
All I can say is a big congratulations to Steve Smith on winning the Ashes.. The very very best, by an absolute mile. The only reason australia won it.
 
Bowling changes costing us, not being able to keep pressure on, once smith gets to 20-40 we hit panic mode, haven’t been able to dry up a end, Aussies have been 2 and 3 down quickly, they’ve had a lot of luck as well, (bad catching, just missing the outside edge) Aussies have been better in the series but we haven’t been a million miles from them.

I’m surprised we haven produced more green wickets mind ya
 
hudson88 said:
This is the top and bottom mind, they’ve got a batsman who will go down as one of the all times greats, and a very disciplined bowling attack with plans of how to get people out, executed by very, very good bowlers.
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Yeah I agree with that, they preparation and plans for our batsman was better and that preparation was more of a influence than any preparation their players had playing red ball cricket imo
 
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TopCat said:
Totally different situation.

Those 2 sentences don't add up. If they are such an amazing team and it's no shame losing to them, why do we suddenly need a grassroots rebuild?
What we need to do is start picking the best players for each position and get the red ball season aligned to the test schedule
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Because the best players aren’t good enough due to an abysmal County system?
 
hudson88 said:
So no, it isn’t simply down to game time in the longer format. But as has been mentioned when was the last time Stokes was made available for Durham in the championship? Bairstow for Yorkshire? My opinion is red ball is being neglected.
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Stokes's last CC appearance for Durham was that ridiculous home pink ball floodlight game in June 2017 against Worcs. He scored 0 and bowled 20-3-81-0.

His last red ball appearance was the last game of the 2016 season away to Hampshite.We won that game and then we all know what happened next.:evil:
 
The Red Telephone said:
Stokes's last CC appearance for Durham was that ridiculous home pink ball floodlight game in June 2017 against Worcs. He scored 0 and bowled 20-3-81-0.

His last red ball appearance was the last game of the 2016 season away to Hampshite.We won that game and then we all know what happened next.:evil:
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It’s hasn’t exactly effected his performances though has it at international level?
 
Voice of fair play said:
I think we just have to accept we were beaten by better players playing better cricket.
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For me, they wanted it more than us, They always do. As a nation, the Aussies put a lot of import on their success at sport at an international level - a bit like South Africa.

They like nothing more than beating the 'old country' with all the bragging rights that brings.

Cricket has a far larger profile in their country that it does in ours - here, football is God and cricket is a game played by soft lads (usually said by lads who have never played, mind you) and doesn't get the same attention or kudos until something like the Ashes or the World Cup comes along.

Until we can match their intensity, we will always struggle. Even when we do beat them, we don't muller them 5-0 like they frequently do to us.
 
Jap Stammer said:
For me, they wanted it more than us, They always do. As a nation, the Aussies put a lot of import on their success at sport at an international level - a bit like South Africa.

They like nothing more than beating the 'old country' with all the bragging rights that brings.

Cricket has a far larger profile in their country that it does in ours - here, football is God and cricket is a game played by soft lads (usually said by lads who have never played, mind you) and doesn't get the same attention or kudos until something like the Ashes or the World Cup comes along.

Until we can match their intensity, we will always struggle. Even when we do beat them, we don't muller them 5-0 like they frequently do to us.
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Possibly can see where you coming from as they always seem to give their all, and always fight and play with intensity.

However tbf to our lads thought in this particular test in both innings our batsman grafted their nuts off and certainly wanted it enough and batted very patiently like people having been saying they should, but were just outdone by the skill of Cummins and Hazelwood who bowled extremely well, some real snorters got wickets in this test mind
 
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Sharpshooter said:
Better bowlers - that's England without Anderson though. Don't underestimate how much of a massive loss that was, the bloke averages 20 here at home in the past 5 years. England IMO would have won that first test probably had he never gotten injured.

Better batsman? One phenomenal batsman and the rest are around the same as England. Warner has the potential to be world class but can't do it in England.
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Given Smith was the difference first test and Anderson’s record is abysmal vs him I doubt we would have won it. We got thrashed.
 
viccarlton said:
Sorry to butt in lads, but I think the simple fact of the matter is that the Aussies have better batsmen and better bowlers than us, in this scenario the outcome is inevitable.
That’s all folks.
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Can’t really agree with that. Anderson, Broad and Archer are as good as Hazlewood, Cummins and Stark, for instance. Burns and Denly just as poor as Warner and Bancroft/Harris. Wade and Paine not as good as Buttler and Bairstow. Stokes is better than Head. Root better than Labuschagne. Smith was a difference maker all series - would help if we didn’t drop him several times and bowl him with no balls. He’s had more than a slice of luck in this - granted totally deserved. But if we fielded better and had Jimmy available it could have been a different story. Teams weren’t too far apart, we just lost key moments - like not winning at Lords and finishing them off at Edgbaston first innings at 120-8.
 
TravellingMackem said:
Can’t really agree with that. Anderson, Broad and Archer are as good as Hazlewood, Cummins and Stark, for instance. Burns and Denly just as poor as Warner and Bancroft/Harris. Wade and Paine not as good as Buttler and Bairstow. Stokes is better than Head. Root better than Labuschagne. Smith was a difference maker all series - would help if we didn’t drop him several times and bowl him with no balls. He’s had more than a slice of luck in this - granted totally deserved. But if we fielded better and had Jimmy available it could have been a different story. Teams weren’t too far apart, we just lost key moments - like not winning at Lords and finishing them off at Edgbaston first innings at 120-8.
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Your spot on.. Our bowling attacks are very similar imo, lots of wickets were taken by both teams. I've said before, the one difference was Smith. The only sole reason Australia have won the Ashes.. Both batting line ups performed terribly, over the course of the Ashes, Smith is exempt from that.
 

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