‘Irrelevant and toxic’ Labour losing out to Ukip, inquiry finds

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kossoff

Striker
Go into your local WMC/Labour club and tell the lads drinking in there that their job in their hometown on a production line should be up for competition from the whole of Europe. Then tell them that you're on their side, and they should vote for a party that believes exactly that, and watch them laugh in your face.

Highly skilled well paid jobs in the UK absolutely should be subject to the forces of globalisation, as we're happy to go abroad and take advantage of identical roles there.

However at why point did we on the Left decide that low skilled, low paid jobs in the UK should be subject to those very same market forces/the power of globalisation. At what point did we become thatcherites?
I'll run it by Lukasz and Barton at 5 a sides on Tuesday and with my ex-colleague (Polish) Paulina and I'll get back to you. Not sure if I should include my missus in the opinion poll also, she was born in Brazil but holds dual nationality with Portugal also. So, she's west Europe as well as 3rd world country. Please advise.
 
Nice side step. I'm aware of the fact their support base consists of a large number of home county thatcherites. I've also pointed out numerous times on here that I would have voted labour had I lived in a marginal seat. I don't, therefore in FPTP my vote was useless, so I voted to reduce labours lead in my seat and make them work harder.
I'm sorry like but you can't say 'we on the left' and 'when did we become Thatcherite' when you voted UKIP! If you wanted to protest vote, I'm certain there would have been leftist alternatives to Labour.
 
I have a problem with you spouting unfounded arguments, yes. So out of the 3 "piss poor" countries you named, I countered one having experience of having been there on a few occasions. I also threw in another that should be considered in the same vain, but I found it to be a great country. You were discussing infrastructure in your first post and that is why people leave the country. Not quite sure that's accurate. Your argument has now changed from infrastructure to poverty.

You say it like these people wake up one day, get on a boat and walk in CEO positions. These are people that have worked harder than our own people to learn a foreign language, to move abroad to better their life. There is a market for the work that these people go into that our own people can't be assed to do eg Hotel work, cleaning, call centre work, labouring. Your argument about is it fair for our own people, yes it is, best person for the job. If someone actually is prepared to do the jobs that our own British people can't be fucked to do, fair play to them.

Let me ask you this, are you going to stay in the same town you were born in without any aspirations for increasing your pay and in turn our standard and quality of living? Why, therefore, should we prevent other people from doing so?
"So out of the 3 "piss poor" countries you named"

Did I describe them as "piss poor"?

"You were discussing infrastructure"

Infrastructure can be used as a catch-all term for they lack facilities, organisation, etc, which is true. Those countries, comparatively, lack the developed social and economic infrastructure of highly developed western european nations. That is fact mate. Fact. It's also what causes things like poverty. You're arguing over how you've interpreted a sentence not what it's actually discussing.

"You say it like these people wake up one day, get on a boat and walk in CEO positions."

No I don't. Please find the post where I said or suggested that. I said they're largely unskilled young men, something which we have enough of already.

"These are people that have worked harder than our own people to learn a foreign language, to move abroad to better their life."

Never said otherwise, I said the opposite in fact, I said I'm sure they have a superior work ethic. Why are you telling me things I've already said?

"There is a market for the work that these people go into that our own people can't be assed to do"

No mate, what they do is work utterly shit jobs for utterly shit wages. It's not that British people can't be arsed to do them, it's that employers specifically seek to employ immigrants because to them, the NMW is a lot of money, they'll compromise on living standards, house share etc to make ends meet. That's a race to the bottom.

Here's that argument in the words of a Somali migrant who seems to think that immigrants have a better work ethic than British people. I think that's bullshit, but here's what he has to say

"So, why do foreigners do the "undoable and unwanted" jobs? Simply, most of us had a tough life in the past" - any job here is better than the best job they can get in their home country.

http://www.channel4.com/news/immigrants-do-the-work-you-wont-touch

"Your argument about is it fair for our own people, yes it is, best person for the job. If someone actually is prepared to do the jobs that our own British people can't be fucked to do, fair play to them."

How is that fair? The 'best person' isn't always the most qualified, sometimes the 'best person' to the employer is the person who'll do it cheapest, someone who's willing to compromise on living standards, sacrifice everything just so they have a job, move anywhere, work fixed-term contracts or casual contracts with no pensions or benefits etc.

It is simply not fair to British people that in their home country, in Britain they have to compete with unskilled labour from countries we cannot go and work in. How is that fair?

Let me ask you this, are you going to stay in the same town you were born in without any aspirations for increasing your pay and in turn our standard and quality of living? Why, therefore, should we prevent other people from doing so?

How is that even a comparison? There are no national borders between towns in the same country, you don't need a passport to move to a different part of the country for work, etc. That's a ridiculous comparison and you know it.

I'm sorry like but you can't say 'we on the left' and 'when did we become Thatcherite' when you voted UKIP! If you wanted to protest vote, I'm certain there would have been leftist alternatives to Labour.
That's not always how a protest vote works, a protest vote can be used to lower your party's majority against their nearest rival with the aim of incentivising your local MP to work for his vote

Look at the Labour MPs from safe labour areas...how little they actually have to work for votes is scandalous
 

Newcastle Fan

Central Defender
I'm sorry like but you can't say 'we on the left' and 'when did we become Thatcherite' when you voted UKIP! If you wanted to protest vote, I'm certain there would have been leftist alternatives to Labour.
Errr yes, yes I can.

Because once again, I voted UKIP because they were forecast as coming 2nd in my seat (as according to polls prior to the election), and therefore I wanted to reduce labours majority, because let's be honest they take us for granted a bit up here.

People vote for parties for a whole host of reasons.

You don't get to say 'you voted X therefore your opinion on this has to be Y'

Thats not how it works.
 

kossoff

Striker
@Frijj what is stopping you going to their countries?


P.s. I don't personally know any foreign people living here that share more than 2 to a flat or house. I do however know a Polish lad who owns his own apartment in Manchester, much more successful than myself in that aspect.
 

haway

Striker
Thats not true though is it. There's a massive chasm between 'anti migrant rhetoric' I.E. Hating people because they come from different countries, and opposing mass immigration for a number of socio-economic reasons.

The reason anti migrant rhetoric exists on the scale it does today is a direct result of people in the latter categories being sneered at for holding a perfectly valid opinion.
Simply not true.

I agree that when you hear people on the left dismissing everything and anything as racist, it helps no-one, but the idea that the reason anti-immigration rhetoric exists on the scale it does is because of people being 'sneered at', as opposed to the fact immigration has been used ruthlessly by politicians and the media alike too push an agenda, and the fact there is still a sizeable amount of the population who are 'soft' racists.
 

Newcastle Fan

Central Defender
@Frijj and the cost of living is relative meaning your quality of life can be better. Another nonsense argument.
Consumer Prices in Romania are 54.74% lowerthan in United Kingdom
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Romania are 60.70% lower than in United Kingdom
Rent Prices in Romania are 74.72% lower than in United Kingdom
Restaurant Prices in Romania are 66.53% lowerthan in United Kingdom
Groceries Prices in Romania are 54.63% lowerthan in United Kingdom
Local Purchasing Power in Romania is 31.88%lower than in United Kingdom

But

4 United Kingdom 3246.25
27 Romania 497.5

Average wage in USD

So UK average wage is over 6 times that of Romania. But cost of living isn't. So his argument isn't rubbish at all, @Frijj 's point stands.
 
Errr yes, yes I can.

Because once again, I voted UKIP because they were forecast as coming 2nd in my seat (as according to polls prior to the election), and therefore I wanted to reduce labours majority, because let's be honest they take us for granted a bit up here.

People vote for parties for a whole host of reasons.

You don't get to say 'you voted X therefore your opinion on this has to be Y'

Thats not how it works.
You could have reduced Labour's majority by 1 had you voted for another alternative leftist party. That would have been a protest. I say again, you can't criticise 'Thatcherite' politics and say 'we on the left' with any kind of credence or principle when you voted UKIP.

If you voted UKIP because you wanted to vote UKIP then that's fine but don't try and dress it up. You could have voted for a left leaning party as a protest to reduce Labour's majority and take some kind of stance but you chose a right wing, Thatcherite, socially conservative party.
 

Newcastle Fan

Central Defender
You could have reduced Labour's majority by 1 had you voted for another alternative leftist party. That would have been a protest. I say again, you can't criticise 'Thatcherite' politics and say 'we on the left' with any kind of credence or principle when you voted UKIP.

If you voted UKIP because you wanted to vote UKIP then that's fine but don't try and dress it up. You could have voted for a left leaning party as a protest to reduce Labour's majority and take some kind of stance but you chose a right wing, Thatcherite, socially conservative party.
Sound mate, you think that. You tell me that I can't identify as part of the left because I voted UKIP as a protest vote. You tell me that my beliefs, principles and ideals are all irrelevant, and that my political identity is shaped by the cross I put in a box in May 2015.

My grandad voted UKIP too. He voted labour in every single election prior to 2015 and post '45, is a former shop steward and has left leaning politics.

is he allowed to refer to himself as part of the left? Or not?
 
"So out of the 3 "piss poor" countries you named"

Did I describe them as "piss poor"?

"You were discussing infrastructure"

Infrastructure can be used as a catch-all term for they lack facilities, organisation, etc, which is true. Those countries, comparatively, lack the developed social and economic infrastructure of highly developed western european nations. That is fact mate. Fact. It's also what causes things like poverty. You're arguing over how you've interpreted a sentence not what it's actually discussing.

"You say it like these people wake up one day, get on a boat and walk in CEO positions."

No I don't. Please find the post where I said or suggested that. I said they're largely unskilled young men, something which we have enough of already.

"These are people that have worked harder than our own people to learn a foreign language, to move abroad to better their life."

Never said otherwise, I said the opposite in fact, I said I'm sure they have a superior work ethic. Why are you telling me things I've already said?

"There is a market for the work that these people go into that our own people can't be assed to do"

No mate, what they do is work utterly shit jobs for utterly shit wages. It's not that British people can't be arsed to do them, it's that employers specifically seek to employ immigrants because to them, the NMW is a lot of money, they'll compromise on living standards, house share etc to make ends meet. That's a race to the bottom.

Here's that argument in the words of a Somali migrant who seems to think that immigrants have a better work ethic than British people. I think that's bullshit, but here's what he has to say

"So, why do foreigners do the "undoable and unwanted" jobs? Simply, most of us had a tough life in the past" - any job here is better than the best job they can get in their home country.

http://www.channel4.com/news/immigrants-do-the-work-you-wont-touch

"Your argument about is it fair for our own people, yes it is, best person for the job. If someone actually is prepared to do the jobs that our own British people can't be fucked to do, fair play to them."

How is that fair? The 'best person' isn't always the most qualified, sometimes the 'best person' to the employer is the person who'll do it cheapest, someone who's willing to compromise on living standards, sacrifice everything just so they have a job, move anywhere, work fixed-term contracts or casual contracts with no pensions or benefits etc.

It is simply not fair to British people that in their home country, in Britain they have to compete with unskilled labour from countries we cannot go and work in. How is that fair?

Let me ask you this, are you going to stay in the same town you were born in without any aspirations for increasing your pay and in turn our standard and quality of living? Why, therefore, should we prevent other people from doing so?

How is that even a comparison? There are no national borders between towns in the same country, you don't need a passport to move to a different part of the country for work, etc. That's a ridiculous comparison and you know it.



That's not always how a protest vote works, a protest vote can be used to lower your party's majority against their nearest rival with the aim of incentivising your local MP to work for his vote

Look at the Labour MPs from safe labour areas...how little they actually have to work for votes is scandalous
We get an opportunity to vote once every five years in a general election. If someone on the left votes for UKIP in that election, it will be a decade since they last voted for a left party by the time the next once comes around. Unless he is a left wing activist or active trade unionist, I don't see how he can be demonstrating his 'we on the left' credentials.

And it wasn't a tactical vote to benefit a leftist party either
 

Skandhaless

Striker
Errr yes, yes I can.

Because once again, I voted UKIP because they were forecast as coming 2nd in my seat (as according to polls prior to the election), and therefore I wanted to reduce labours majority, because let's be honest they take us for granted a bit up here.

People vote for parties for a whole host of reasons.

You don't get to say 'you voted X therefore your opinion on this has to be Y'

Thats not how it works.
Don't forget to tell. " the lads in the labour club" and your soon to be new friends at the meetings how you roll. You will be well received I'm sure. Good luck .
 
54% of the country if the poll of polls on Peston this morning are correct. A remain vote is a vote for open door immigration.
It is and if that is what people want then I won't whinge. A very big experiment in social engineering will continue unabated and we will have voted for it. I find it amazing.
 
Sound mate, you think that. You tell me that I can't identify as part of the left because I voted UKIP as a protest vote. You tell me that my beliefs, principles and ideals are all irrelevant, and that my political identity is shaped by the cross I put in a box in May 2015.

My grandad voted UKIP too. He voted labour in every single election prior to 2015 and post '45, is a former shop steward and has left leaning politics.

is he allowed to refer to himself as part of the left? Or not?
If you are economically liberal, believe in free market economics, as well as being anti-EU and anti-Corbyn (as I think you've said on other threads) then your beliefs are more in line with either right wing or centre-right in modern British politics. That isn't an insult. That is just how the political spectrum lies.

The parties on the left, Labour, Lib Dems and Greens, don't promote both of those policies. The only ones that do are UKIP and Conservatives and they are right and centre right.
 

haway

Striker
Consumer Prices in Romania are 54.74% lowerthan in United Kingdom
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Romania are 60.70% lower than in United Kingdom
Rent Prices in Romania are 74.72% lower than in United Kingdom
Restaurant Prices in Romania are 66.53% lowerthan in United Kingdom
Groceries Prices in Romania are 54.63% lowerthan in United Kingdom
Local Purchasing Power in Romania is 31.88%lower than in United Kingdom

But

4 United Kingdom 3246.25
27 Romania 497.5

Average wage in USD

So UK average wage is over 6 times that of Romania. But cost of living isn't. So his argument isn't rubbish at all, @Frijj 's point stands.
I guess you could argue that wage doesn't mean everything. One society could earn an average of £1000 a month and one could earn £500 a month, and if the former worked 100 hours a week, and the latter 20, the latter would surely be better off. Things like health, happiness, not to mention the more obvious points like the black market and unsalaried economy all seem to count outside GDP/ capita and purchasing power parity stats.

That said I think even factoring anything like that in Frijj's point remains.
 

Newcastle Fan

Central Defender
If you are economically liberal, believe in free market economics, as well as being anti-EU and anti-Corbyn (as I think you've said on other threads) then your beliefs are more in line with either right wing or centre-right in modern British politics. That isn't an insult. That is just how the political spectrum lies.

The parties on the left, Labour, Lib Dems and Greens, don't promote both of those policies. The only ones that do are UKIP and Conservatives and they are right and centre right.
I'm not economically liberal. My economic views are left of centre. Therefore I am left wing.

There is not a left or right position on the EU. You can be left or right and be pro or anti EU. The same with mass immigration.
 
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