Dalian Atkinson - Police on trial

[monkeytassle]

None of that will have been known to the officers. A neighbour called in the disturbance. The whole thing kicked off when they arrived so that's all irrelevant to their assessment.


Do you not think the 5ft 4 police officer would have training to deal with such a threat?

I've been taught how to tackle a 6ft 7 120kg rugby player. Ask me to do it 100 times I won't be on a 100% record.

 

[pillars of hercules]

In a society that had properly funded services and values people's welfare, that's a matter for trained mental health/ medical professionals with experience in dealing with and subduing safely a subject in that condition.

What you should have is a police officer and a member of the crisis team attending. One shouldn't attend without the other.

 

[Cockney Mackem]

What you should have is a police officer and a member of the crisis team attending. One shouldn't attend without the other.

That may be the best approach

 

[Jimnastic]

It is quite a regular occurrence that when a patient or someone detained in a secure mental health unit becomes disruptive, the Police are requested to attend to deal with it, believe it or not.

What you should have is a police officer and a member of the crisis team attending. One shouldn't attend without the other.

So are you suggesting everyone hangs back until 9 a.m. when a mental health worker is able to attend? That sounds like a good idea. Best have the Coroner kept in the loop as well

 

[pillars of hercules]

It is quite a regular occurrence that when a patient or someone detained in a secure mental health unit becomes disruptive, the Police are requested to attend to deal with it, believe it or not.

So are you suggesting everyone hangs back until 9 a.m. when a mental health worker is able to attend? That sounds like a good idea. Best have the Coroner kept in the loop as well

Are you suggesting a mental health worker isn't always on duty working with the police for such incidents?

 

[BlackOps]

Are you suggesting a mental health worker isn't always on duty working with the police for such incidents?

From experience of the crisis team are always on duty however i dont think people realise how little there are of them.

Its a nice idea having crisis team going out to mental health jobs with cops however there is a lot wrong with that as well. You would probably have to increase mental health workers ten fold, the safety risk of them being at incidents.

 

[pillars of hercules]

From experience of the crisis team are always on duty however i dont think people realise how little there are of them.

Its a nice idea having crisis team going out to mental health jobs with cops however there is a lot wrong with that as well. You would probably have to increase mental health workers ten fold, the safety risk of them being at incidents.

I have friends that work on the crisis team. A case like this would take priority, but you're right, there's not enough of them, or mental health facilities. Mainly because they're full of druggies unfortunately.

 

[BlackOps]

I have friends that work on the crisis team. A case like this would take priority, but you're right, there's not enough of them, or mental health facilities. Mainly because they're full of druggies unfortunately.

Yup. Yeah it would be high up there but until the subjects safe and contained they cant do much. People think they can charm snakes and talk people out of situations like this where people are frantic etc. They can only really make assessments and work their stuff when someone is calm and willing to engage.

Some forces had a street triage team that would assess people over the phone and allow cops to stand down or if they would need bringing in. It was great as it got cops to the next job and if the wheels came off it was rightly on the mental health workers where it should be, not on cops who are not trained

 

[Jimnastic]

It is quite a regular occurrence that when a patient or someone detained in a secure mental health unit becomes disruptive, the Police are requested to attend to deal with it, believe it or not.

So are you suggesting everyone hangs back until 9 a.m. when a mental health worker is able to attend? That sounds like a good idea. Best have the Coroner kept in the loop

Are you suggesting a mental health worker isn't always on duty working with the police for such incidents?

Generally there is a Duty Social Worker on call, usually tucked up in bed, not necessarily experienced in Mental Health. The Mental Health Crisis team, run by the NHS is a different Animal. Irrespective of their responsibilities, not once in over thirty years have I known, or even heard of, either of the two organisations been known to attend an ongoing disorderly incident regarding someone suffering Mental Health issues. No -one will ever be assessed when drunk or violent in any case.

The Police have powers to detain someone suffering Mental Health at risk to themselves or others and take them to a place of safety for the purpose of assessment, so there is simply no requirement for others to attend. However, it is not unknown, when someone is being assessed and become disruptive or violent for the Police to be summonsed to reduce risk. I have already outlined it is quite a common occurrence for someone already sectioned and detained in a secure unit for the Police to be asked to restrain them. And this is when they are already "In a place of safety"

I am in complete agreement the treatment of Mental Health is woefully inadequate. I have seen Psychiatrists refuse to section a Patient simply because of lack of beds, but that would never be admitted to.

Either way, the crux of the matter, is in an ongoing incident involving risk, no-one else would have the inclination to attend.

 

[pillars of hercules]

Yup. Yeah it would be high up there but until the subjects safe and contained they cant do much. People think they can charm snakes and talk people out of situations like this where people are frantic etc. They can only really make assessments and work their stuff when someone is calm and willing to engage.

Some forces had a street triage team that would assess people over the phone and allow cops to stand down or if they would need bringing in. It was great as it got cops to the next job and if the wheels came off it was rightly on the mental health workers where it should be, not on cops who are not trained

My point in all of this is that it's important for police and mental health workers, work closely together as the lines of responsibility can be blurred. It must be a difficult call to make.

 

[palm 1]

Are you suggesting a mental health worker isn't always on duty working with the police for such incidents?

There are two mental health workers currently working with Northumbria police officers, one north and one south . They will attend mental health incidents on the request of an officer in attendance. What they won’t do however , is attend a situation where there is a serious danger to the mental health nurse and will only attend once the situation is under control .

 

[pillars of hercules]

There are two mental health workers currently working with Northumbria police officers, one north and one south . They will attend mental health incidents on the request of an officer in attendance. What they won’t do however , is attend a situation where there is a serious danger to the mental health nurse and will only attend once the situation is under control .

I know them well

 

[palm 1]

I know them well

Probably one of the best resources NP created.

 

[Patch]

I've been taught how to tackle a 6ft 7 120kg rugby player. Ask me to do it 100 times I won't be on a 100% record.

Absolutely not, but the lass is trained for that job. If she's a liability then she shouldn't be out there. Her gender and stature are irrelevant.

Also, reading what's on-line, I'm minded to withdraw my earlier comment that all he did was threaten the police. I've not read anything to suggest he even did that. He apparently suggested that "10,000 volts was nothing to him" after the first couple of attempts (yep, I've googled it and they operate at 50kV) and that "he was the messiah" (I'm sure that loon David Ike has said similar). So basically, he was suffering a bout of psychosis. As I said in my earlier post, all the police had to go on were their own observations: a neighbour who rang it in was unaware of him grabbing his old man by the throat or threatening his siblings.

The police have a tough job and I admire them for doing it. However, it doesn't give them cart blanche to kill a man. I do feel some sympathy for the junior officer as it sounds like it was the senior officer orchestrating the whole thing.

 

[socrates]

Generally there is a Duty Social Worker on call, usually tucked up in bed, not necessarily experienced in Mental Health. The Mental Health Crisis team, run by the NHS is a different Animal. Irrespective of their responsibilities, not once in over thirty years have I known, or even heard of, either of the two organisations been known to attend an ongoing disorderly incident regarding someone suffering Mental Health issues. No -one will ever be assessed when drunk or violent in any case.

The Police have powers to detain someone suffering Mental Health at risk to themselves or others and take them to a place of safety for the purpose of assessment, so there is simply no requirement for others to attend. However, it is not unknown, when someone is being assessed and become disruptive or violent for the Police to be summonsed to reduce risk. I have already outlined it is quite a common occurrence for someone already sectioned and detained in a secure unit for the Police to be asked to restrain them. And this is when they are already "In a place of safety"

I am in complete agreement the treatment of Mental Health is woefully inadequate. I have seen Psychiatrists refuse to section a Patient simply because of lack of beds, but that would never be admitted to.

Either way, the crux of the matter, is in an ongoing incident involving risk, no-one else would have the inclination to attend.

an excellent post and completely accurate

 

[monkeytassle]

Absolutely not, but the lass is trained for that job. If she's a liability then she shouldn't be out there. Her gender and stature are irrelevant.

Also, reading what's on-line, I'm minded to withdraw my earlier comment that all he did was threaten the police. I've not read anything to suggest he even did that. He apparently suggested that "10,000 volts was nothing to him" after the first couple of attempts (yep, I've googled it and they operate at 50kV) and that "he was the messiah" (I'm sure that loon David Ike has said similar). So basically, he was suffering a bout of psychosis. As I said in my earlier post, all the police had to go on were their own observations: a neighbour who rang it in was unaware of him grabbing his old man by the throat or threatening his siblings.

The police have a tough job and I admire them for doing it. However, it doesn't give them cart blanche to kill a man. I do feel some sympathy for the junior officer as it sounds like it was the senior officer orchestrating the whole thing.

You've never made an error at work despite your training? What is it you do?

 

[Patch]

You've never made an error at work despite your training? What is it you do?

I'm a software developer and of course I've made mistakes. These two aren't on trial for a "mistake" though. I can accept that the tasering could have been the result of anxiety after the previous two failed attempts (although it still doesn't make it right). However, kicking/stamping on the head of an incapacitated man is not a mistake. I honestly don't see how you can defend this. A line was crossed.

 

[Cockney Mackem]

Generally there is a Duty Social Worker on call, usually tucked up in bed, not necessarily experienced in Mental Health. The Mental Health Crisis team, run by the NHS is a different Animal. Irrespective of their responsibilities, not once in over thirty years have I known, or even heard of, either of the two organisations been known to attend an ongoing disorderly incident regarding someone suffering Mental Health issues. No -one will ever be assessed when drunk or violent in any case.

The Police have powers to detain someone suffering Mental Health at risk to themselves or others and take them to a place of safety for the purpose of assessment, so there is simply no requirement for others to attend. However, it is not unknown, when someone is being assessed and become disruptive or violent for the Police to be summonsed to reduce risk. I have already outlined it is quite a common occurrence for someone already sectioned and detained in a secure unit for the Police to be asked to restrain them. And this is when they are already "In a place of safety"

I am in complete agreement the treatment of Mental Health is woefully inadequate. I have seen Psychiatrists refuse to section a Patient simply because of lack of beds, but that would never be admitted to.

Either way, the crux of the matter, is in an ongoing incident involving risk, no-one else would have the inclination to attend.

I wouldn't propose to change the responsibility for dealing with incidents based on the existing services and setup because they're not adequate. That's why I posted at the beginning, the police get called currently because that's what we have. The argument is for an expansion of services to a) reduce the number of incidents of this type by having more support and services available for people suffering from severe mental health issues combined with something as serious as needing dialysis; b) have services that keep track of people with these issues and intervene sooner; and c) have better-trained and equipped teams specifically to deal with incidents when they get this bad. I don't have an issue with those being police teams but there should be coordination and liaison with mental health. The further advantage of it being a specialised team is that, police or otherwise, you can set size and other physical requirements for the members of that team that you can't as much for rank and file officers.

 

[Mackem00]

You've never made an error at work despite your training? What is it you do?

Everyone makes errors at work. Some errors are serious enough to face consequences. Sounds like the powers at be suspect this case may be one of them.

 

[fry]

The trouble with suggesting that there should be MH teams on-call with the police, who attend people in crisis, is that 99.9% of the time, you won’t know that it’s a person in MH crisis until you get there.

The initial 999 calls get logged and an officer dispatched, within seconds, usually with very little detail on there. Often the cops will be en route whilst only the first few lines are on the log and the call taker is still taking details. Could be something as innocuous as “fight in progress in the street, two people, one is kicking the door”.

There are incidents like that in every town and city, all day, every day up and down the country. Often they are very confused initial details and there’s absolutely no context given about who is involved. It’s only once you get there and the situation is calmer that you can piece it together. How do you therefore distinguish what is a MH crisis and what is just ordinary day-to-day crime until an officer arrives? And once they arrive, they have seconds to make that judgement. You can’t be sending MH teams to a routine pub fight just in case one person there is in crisis...

No way in the world could you have MH professionals being first on scene at routine policing incidents, it just wouldn’t work from either a practical point of view or from a staff safety perspective.

Not commenting on this individual case as I wasn’t there.