Dalian Atkinson - Police on trial

Absolutely not, but the lass is trained for that job. If she's a liability then she shouldn't be out there. Her gender and stature are irrelevant.

Also, reading what's on-line, I'm minded to withdraw my earlier comment that all he did was threaten the police. I've not read anything to suggest he even did that. He apparently suggested that "10,000 volts was nothing to him" after the first couple of attempts (yep, I've googled it and they operate at 50kV) and that "he was the messiah" (I'm sure that loon David Ike has said similar). So basically, he was suffering a bout of psychosis. As I said in my earlier post, all the police had to go on were their own observations: a neighbour who rang it in was unaware of him grabbing his old man by the throat or threatening his siblings.

The police have a tough job and I admire them for doing it. However, it doesn't give them cart blanche to kill a man. I do feel some sympathy for the junior officer as it sounds like it was the senior officer orchestrating the whole thing.
Her gender and stature is very relevant to the situation she finds herself in. She may be ‘trained’ as you say, but if she’s 5’4” and up against a 6’ tall physically well built male acting irrationally and erratically telling her that “I’m going to take you to the gates of hell” then I reckon she’d be a bit worried.
It’s a bit like you having spent a few days in a boxing ring going up against Mike Tyson with him telling you that your arse belongs to him.

I really don’t get this “they’re trained for it” line. Cops are ordinary members of society who have been “trained” in lots of things but who don’t always have the luxury of getting the manual out to refresh their skills just before they get thrown into the deep end of a shitfight.

Not one cop on here is defending the actions as reported by the media. If it is as reported then the cops on trial deserve to be punished for what they did.

What we are all saying though is that we have all had experience in dealing with this sort of situation which is more than the majority on here have who sit in their ivory towers pontificating about a situation they will likely never find themselves in.

And I can speak for every cop on here when I say that they get scared dealing with these situations. They fear for their own safety. What they have to do is deal with the ever evolving situation and it’s nowhere near as simple or as easy as some on here think it should be because running away isn’t an option.
 


I'm a software developer and of course I've made mistakes. These two aren't on trial for a "mistake" though. I can accept that the tasering could have been the result of anxiety after the previous two failed attempts (although it still doesn't make it right). However, kicking/stamping on the head of an incapacitated man is not a mistake. I honestly don't see how you can defend this. A line was crossed.
You said she had training to deal with the situation. Let's say the situation changed and the training wasn't sufficient or the situation was different to the training. What now? You can beat the shit out of your keyboard and your keyboard isn't a 6ft bloke covered in blood.

If my job involved me being dead/assaulted or kicking someone in the head on a daily basis. Pretty sure I know which decision I'd make. These people do it daily. For piss all money too.
Everyone makes errors at work. Some errors are serious enough to face consequences. Sounds like the powers at be suspect this case may be one of them.
Hence the trial. Hence my comments on context and not looking at it in the cold light of day. If you felt your life was under threat, what would you consider an acceptable course of action?
 
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Hence the trial. Hence my comments on context and not looking at it in the cold light of day. If you felt your life was under threat, what would you consider an acceptable course of action?
Hence why you shouldn't be willing to exonerate the police involved until all evidence has been revealed. Didn't sound like they were still under imminent risk of assault or death when the head kicking took place mind but suppose we'll find out in due course.
 
Her gender and stature is very relevant to the situation she finds herself in. She may be ‘trained’ as you say, but if she’s 5’4” and up against a 6’ tall physically well built male acting irrationally and erratically telling her that “I’m going to take you to the gates of hell” then I reckon she’d be a bit worried.
It’s a bit like you having spent a few days in a boxing ring going up against Mike Tyson with him telling you that your arse belongs to him.

I really don’t get this “they’re trained for it” line. Cops are ordinary members of society who have been “trained” in lots of things but who don’t always have the luxury of getting the manual out to refresh their skills just before they get thrown into the deep end of a shitfight.

Not one cop on here is defending the actions as reported by the media. If it is as reported then the cops on trial deserve to be punished for what they did.

What we are all saying though is that we have all had experience in dealing with this sort of situation which is more than the majority on here have who sit in their ivory towers pontificating about a situation they will likely never find themselves in.

And I can speak for every cop on here when I say that they get scared dealing with these situations. They fear for their own safety. What they have to do is deal with the ever evolving situation and it’s nowhere near as simple or as easy as some on here think it should be because running away isn’t an option.
Well said, but I think it's know as a tactical withdrawal rather than running away. 😉
 
What you should have is a police officer and a member of the crisis team attending. One shouldn't attend without the other.

Takes around 4 hours to get the CAT team to come out - even then they don't want to know until the punter is subdued and completely safe before they speak to them.
 
Her gender and stature is very relevant to the situation she finds herself in. She may be ‘trained’ as you say, but if she’s 5’4” and up against a 6’ tall physically well built male acting irrationally and erratically telling her that “I’m going to take you to the gates of hell” then I reckon she’d be a bit worried.
It’s a bit like you having spent a few days in a boxing ring going up against Mike Tyson with him telling you that your arse belongs to him.

I really don’t get this “they’re trained for it” line. Cops are ordinary members of society who have been “trained” in lots of things but who don’t always have the luxury of getting the manual out to refresh their skills just before they get thrown into the deep end of a shitfight.

Not one cop on here is defending the actions as reported by the media. If it is as reported then the cops on trial deserve to be punished for what they did.

What we are all saying though is that we have all had experience in dealing with this sort of situation which is more than the majority on here have who sit in their ivory towers pontificating about a situation they will likely never find themselves in.

And I can speak for every cop on here when I say that they get scared dealing with these situations. They fear for their own safety. What they have to do is deal with the ever evolving situation and it’s nowhere near as simple or as easy as some on here think it should be because running away isn’t an option.

You're right, I've not been in that position but my argument has kind of got a bit side-tracked, albeit I've probably done that myself. The senior cop lost his rag and stamped/kicked the head of a bloke he'd just incapacitated with a taser. It's cowardly and a sign that he was completely our of control. I hope justice is done.
 
You're right, I've not been in that position but my argument has kind of got a bit side-tracked, albeit I've probably done that myself. The senior cop lost his rag and stamped/kicked the head of a bloke he'd just incapacitated with a taser. It's cowardly and a sign that he was completely our of control. I hope justice is done.
How do you know that the Taser worked?
You hope justice is done as long as it’s the cop that gets found guilty is what you mean.
 
You said she had training to deal with the situation. Let's say the situation changed and the training wasn't sufficient or the situation was different to the training. What now? You can beat the shit out of your keyboard and your keyboard isn't a 6ft bloke covered in blood.

If my job involved me being dead/assaulted or kicking someone in the head on a daily basis. Pretty sure I know which decision I'd make. These people do it daily. For piss all money too.

Hence the trial. Hence my comments on context and not looking at it in the cold light of day. If you felt your life was under threat, what would you consider an acceptable course of action?

As above, by my own hand, I've dragged the argument away from the key fact. The cop completely lost his rag and perpetrated violence that was bound to result in a threat to life. It was cowardly and he was completely out of control; he hadn't even been physically assaulted. He should never have been a cop.

Also, for what it's worth, I've never beaten the shit out of my keyboard, mouse or any other item of IT equipment.
How do you know that the Taser worked?
You hope justice is done as long as it’s the cop that gets found guilty is what you mean.

Witnesses said that he was motionless on the ground when the kicking/stamping was dished out. On the second point, on the basis of what's been reported so far then yes, that is what I mean.
 
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As above, by my own hand, I've dragged the argument away from the key fact. The cop completely lost his rag and perpetrated violence that was bound to result in a threat to life. It was cowardly and he was completely out of control; he hadn't even been physically assaulted. He should never have been a cop.

Also, for what it's worth, I've never beaten the shit out of my keyboard, mouse or any other item of IT equipment.


Witnesses said that he was motionless on the ground when the kicking/stamping was dished out. On the second point, on the basis of what's been reported so far then yes, that is what I mean.
On the basis of what has been reported you know next to nowt about what actually happened. You only know what a journalist is telling you.
And I’ll go back to the point I’m consistently making. If the cops have done what has been reported then they deserve to go to prison, but let’s wait and get the full facts first before passing judgement.
 
On the basis of what has been reported you know next to nowt about what actually happened. You only know what a journalist is telling you.
And I’ll go back to the point I’m consistently making. If the cops have done what has been reported then they deserve to go to prison, but let’s wait and get the full facts first before passing judgement.

I don't even know what we're arguing about. I agree the police have a hard job and that they often have to go "off script". However, I only know what you know about this and it looks like a cowardly act of violence against an incapacitated man; that's my opinion. If we're all going to say fuck all until the judge does his summing up, or even passes sentence, then we might as well never talk about any of this stuff on here.
 
Hence why you shouldn't be willing to exonerate the police involved until all evidence has been revealed. Didn't sound like they were still under imminent risk of assault or death when the head kicking took place mind but suppose we'll find out in due course.
I'm not exonerating the police. I'm saying there is context. Let's say you're on a very basic salary very day you get out of your bed and are at risk of a lunatic throwing grenades at you. Or trying to spit at you. Or trying to headbutt you. Or trying to shoot you. Or trying to stab you. You think your reaction function would be the same as me or you trying to do software or trading?

The officers are being charged with murder. Which means they set out to kill the victim.
 
There is no recommended limit. A taser will cycle for 5 seconds. This gives an opportunity to detain a subject or to reassess the threat. If a threat still exists it can be recycled to give further time to detain/keep threat under control. As soon as that threat has gone/detained it should be holstered.

If the taser doesnt work at all then its a bad day completely and my baton would be out for that threat level. Ultimately its to detain the male.


Im a little confused by the reports up to now. Stated that 3 cartridges were shot. That long ago i think it will have been an x26 model which only holds 2 and as far as im aware, no other spares are carried on the person. If it was the x2 model there are only 2 shots and cartridges are not stored.

"Police Constable Monk was the more experienced officer and was armed with a Taser. He was equipped, as is standard, with three Taser cartridges. Pc Bettley-Smith was armed with an extendable baton."

Must be a Mercia thing?
 

"Police Constable Monk was the more experienced officer and was armed with a Taser. He was equipped, as is standard, with three Taser cartridges. Pc Bettley-Smith was armed with an extendable baton."

Must be a Mercia thing?

Must be. Usually only carry the 2 and they're carried in the taser itself. Using a third would require a reload if they're using the X2. The third would, or should be carried in a safety bay. Either way i wouldnt like one of them in my vest, they're known to discharge accidently.

From reading it in that he had to reload after firing once it sounds like the x26 and it sounds like mercia need to upgrade their tasers
 
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Must be. Usually only carry the 2 and they're carried in the taser itself. Using a third would require a reload if they're using the X2. The third would, or should be carried in a safety bay. Either way i wouldnt like one of them in my vest, they're known to discharge accidently
It was x26. I’ve never heard of it being standard to carry three. Perhaps back then, it was their policy to have a spare on your person if your partner isn’t/wasn’t a STO?
 
First police conviction of manslaughter in 35 years
"A trial at Birmingham Crown Court heard Monk tasered Mr Atkinson for 33 seconds and kicked him twice in the head."
Following a three-week-trial, jurors took 18 hours and 48 minutes to reach unanimous verdicts on Monk.
They are still deliberating on an assault charge relating to Monk's colleague and former girlfriend, PC Mary Ellen Bettley-Smith, 31.
 
"A trial at Birmingham Crown Court heard Monk tasered Mr Atkinson for 33 seconds and kicked him twice in the head."
Following a three-week-trial, jurors took 18 hours and 48 minutes to reach unanimous verdicts on Monk.
They are still deliberating on an assault charge relating to Monk's colleague and former girlfriend, PC Mary Ellen Bettley-Smith, 31.
Both as culpable as each other imo.
 

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