Roy has been shafted by Ed Smith, who Giles will sack after the Ashes.
Yeah Bairstow at 7 is fine, our lower middle order is not the issue, I've no idea why people focus on it so much tbh.
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Jonny Bairstow
- Thread starter chunkyshanhawk53
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Roy has been shafted by Ed Smith, who Giles will sack after the Ashes.
Yeah Bairstow at 7 is fine, our lower middle order is not the issue, I've no idea why people focus on it so much tbh.
TheRey
Striker
You think Johnny Bairstow is world class. I have no more to add, your honour
Roy should never have opened. On that we agree
Bairstow at 7 is not fine on the last 3 years
Ben Foakes can't score runs in CC, Bairstow is better, simple
I said he is world class in the ODI side, which he is, you were still slagging him off after match winning 100s against NZ and India, so not really taking much meaning from your posts when there is such clear bias there
Had to chuckle reading those world cup threads.
He has batted 7 a handful of times in the last few years, thats the point, he has batted 3 positions this summer for starters, even moved up to 6 this series as Buttler was out of form for example.
Sorry like but wicket keeper at 7 has nothing to do with failings of our top 5 like
How long have I said that Bairstow wont get runs in the top5? years, same as Root at 3. I may be an idiot, but been consistent on them 2 positions, leave them at 4 and 7, they do OK there.
Its been the back up bowling this series which has cost us like anyway.
Bairstow actually contribued massively with bat at Leeds, where he got Stokes going and at Lords twice.
I have nothing against Ben Foakes at all, but people just band his name about like he is genius, he has struggled this year, wouldn't have been fair chucking him in and would have solved nothing IMO.
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Fair post.
By the way Chunky, I do accept your points about averages to a degree, he has to do better, I'd just make this final post on how I feel about averages/lower middle order focus, as its been on my mind, and feel it gets bit too much criticism.
This isn't just necessary about Bairstow, say Buttler was keeping wicket or Ali was there
With a solid top 5, imagine how much better the lower order players would be able to play? against tired bowlers with 250-300 on the board (remember Bairstow and Ali and co bat in the lower middle order for a reason, they don't have top 5 techniques). They are always coming in a crisis and then get criticisd for trying to play shots to get the momentum changed.
As I say, he hasn't batted 7 those last few years, so of course his form will be a bit all over the players
Average isn't always the best gage of a number 7 or 8, there are numerous times when you have to play unselfihsly, even at Lords, he sacrificed his wicket towards the end one innings to try and set the game up, like all players in other sides do. Average only tells part of the story for lower order, not the same as it is for the top 5 IMO.
He has to improve by the way I agree, and no problem with people thinking a change is needed I guess, but I'd just say thats what I think it, and I'd like to see him get a run at 7 and just 7, and then judge him on that.
People think I am some Bairstow mega fan, really not, just don;t like how he seems to get singled out by some people, and also as I say, people focus on a part of the team that isn't really the problem.
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He’s 5th in the all time list for highest percentage bowled according to TMS. Walsh was top
Walsh is also top of most ducks in test cricket history, Broad is catching him up
Agree ,problem is though he'll get away with those shortcomings at county level and so won't have to adapt.
TravellingMackem
Winger
Think we have bigger problems than Bairstow. Roy being the main one. Still don’t think we can get both Jos and Jonny in the side though, both good 7s but too loose to bad higher, especially with our crumbling top 6.
Absolutely right.
Silly Point
Striker
One of the first to go for me along with the other white ball specialists Roy and Buttler. Shame there's fuck all else as an alternative. Foakes, Pope possibly but that still leaves one of them
rentaghost
Striker
I think there will inevitably be changes and it wouldn't surprise me if Bairstow is one of them. Its a difficult one though - had any other player outside of the England team played in the Ashes against that attack would they have fared much better? Maybe they would but certainly not being selected has been a huge advantage. I think it was wise for example to not select Sibley / Crawley etc because they would almost certainly have failed and they can find their feet in test cricket against slightly less difficult opponents. I think I would probably play Pope and Foakes for Roy and Bairstow in the final test and get Woakes back in for Overton.
CC doesn't recommend until Tuesday so any replacements won't have had any red ball experience for weeks. Same squad I'm afraid- same result I'm afraid.
The Breen Machine
Striker
He's been below par in test cricket for a while. He should either bat at 7 with Buttler being dropped but for me there's no place for both of them. Buttler at 7 as a specialist batsman is laughable, if England want Buttler at 7 then he should take the gloves and Bairstow should be dropped.
I'd be tempted to give Foakes a go either way, as Bairstow and Buttler have not performed this summer. Buttler's test record of 1 hundred in 35 tests is not good enough, particularly if he's now a specialist batsman.
I'd be tempted to give Foakes a go either way, as Bairstow and Buttler have not performed this summer. Buttler's test record of 1 hundred in 35 tests is not good enough, particularly if he's now a specialist batsman.
I believe that buttlers next game will be his 100th first class game. He has 5 tons
Pope has 7 tons (inc 2 doubles) in 28
Edit: Foakes has 9 in 106. And is a way better keeper
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rentaghost
Striker
Whilst statistically true. I'm not sure your argument is quite a powerful as it seems. Duncan Fletcher was never interested in first class records and was much more interested in whether players had the mental strength and technique to cope with top class fast bowling. We all know the records of vaughan and tresco were in their 20s and worse than Buttler's at their time of selection. Also the first class records of many of our discarded players in recent years has been excellent. The question when selecting any player isnt whether they average 30, 35 or 40+ but whether they have the technique and mental strength to play against bowling of the highest class and facing 78mph seamers on the county circuit isn't always a good marker for that. Selecting players on their ODI form is equally flawed and like playing county cricket is only a slight indicator as to whether they can step up. Buttler's should be judged on his ability now in test cricket but I dont think his record in county cricket when he used to play it means too much tbh. You can take the view that his performances this summer mean he should be dropped or his performances last summer mean he is worth persevering with.
Ok. Buttler has 1 test ton in 35 tests. Averaging 32
rentaghost
Striker
Yes which is why his position is being debated. That said its hard to put a strong argument for any player on the county circuit to have played against the Pakistani, Indian and Australian attacks of the last two English summers that would have averaged more than 32. Its about what Foakes has averaged this season on the county circuit for example yet there's this assumption that he would have done better.
In my humble opinion, if we are as suggested by some on this thread to ignore First Class Averages etc, then how do you change the make up of the squad?
What we have seen in this ashes series is our top and middle order have some serious flaws in their techniques and mental aptitude to Test match batting. This is something nearly every commentator on TMS and Sky have agreed on. Yes Buttler, Bairstow and Roy are talented and more often than not excel in the white ball formats of the game, but the clear fact remains they struggle in test matches and their techniques have been found wanting.
Surely after any series defeat (even if we draw the last test, its still a defeat in my opinion as the ashes aren't going to be sitting in Lords) it would be common sense to look at other options, be that Foakes, Pope or A N other county player? Or do we keep the same squad and assume that despite not playing County or any available form of red ball cricket they will suddenly improve?
What we have seen in this ashes series is our top and middle order have some serious flaws in their techniques and mental aptitude to Test match batting. This is something nearly every commentator on TMS and Sky have agreed on. Yes Buttler, Bairstow and Roy are talented and more often than not excel in the white ball formats of the game, but the clear fact remains they struggle in test matches and their techniques have been found wanting.
Surely after any series defeat (even if we draw the last test, its still a defeat in my opinion as the ashes aren't going to be sitting in Lords) it would be common sense to look at other options, be that Foakes, Pope or A N other county player? Or do we keep the same squad and assume that despite not playing County or any available form of red ball cricket they will suddenly improve?
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