Jonny Bairstow

[Comeback_Kenwyne]

I'd be dropping Bairstow for Foakes.

But only if I wasn't dropping Buttler for Foakes. And Buttler is more of an issue than Bairstow, so I don't know.

All hinges on Root tbh. He's clearly better at four if he's captain. I'd like a 4-5-6-7 of:

- Root
- Pope
- Stokes
- Foakes

But that would probably mean keeping Denly at three and finding a new opener.

Bairstow is clearly a better test player than Denly, but then Root, Pope and Stokes all probably benefit from being one down the order.

It isn't easy.

If it comes down to a straight choice between Bairstow and Foakes though, I'd be dropping Bairstow. He may be a better player than Foakes - has a better country record - but his form is just woeful and he's getting away with it only because others are even worse.

But if it were a case of both, I'd probably bat Foakes six and let Bairstow bat seven and keep the gloves. Foakes is a better keeper, marginally, but Bairstow is a more natural seven and foakes has a better defensive technique..

I don't know - completely inconclusive and, as ever, all depends on the shitshow of a top order.

In my humble opinion, if we are as suggested by some on this thread to ignore First Class Averages etc, then how do you change the make up of the squad?

What we have seen in this ashes series is our top and middle order have some serious flaws in their techniques and mental aptitude to Test match batting. This is something nearly every commentator on TMS and Sky have agreed on. Yes Buttler, Bairstow and Roy are talented and more often than not excel in the white ball formats of the game, but the clear fact remains they struggle in test matches and their techniques have been found wanting.

Surely after any series defeat (even if we draw the last test, its still a defeat in my opinion as the ashes aren't going to be sitting in Lords) it would be common sense to look at other options, be that Foakes, Pope or A N other county player? Or do we keep the same squad and assume that despite not playing County or any available form of red ball cricket they will suddenly improve?

I think it's just cab off the rank with Foakes. He may not succeed long term, fully accept. But he averaged over 40 in his short test career, is the best gloveman perhaps in the world, and has played the best test innings of the last three years by an Englishman not called Stokes..

In my humble opinion, if we are as suggested by some on this thread to ignore First Class Averages etc, then how do you change the make up of the squad?

What we have seen in this ashes series is our top and middle order have some serious flaws in their techniques and mental aptitude to Test match batting. This is something nearly every commentator on TMS and Sky have agreed on. Yes Buttler, Bairstow and Roy are talented and more often than not excel in the white ball formats of the game, but the clear fact remains they struggle in test matches and their techniques have been found wanting.

Surely after any series defeat (even if we draw the last test, its still a defeat in my opinion as the ashes aren't going to be sitting in Lords) it would be common sense to look at other options, be that Foakes, Pope or A N other county player? Or do we keep the same squad and assume that despite not playing County or any available form of red ball cricket they will suddenly improve?

I think it's just cab off the rank with Foakes. He may not succeed long term, fully accept. But he averaged over 40 in his short test career, is the best gloveman perhaps in the world, and has played the best test innings of the last three years by an Englishman not called Stokes..

 

[chunksafc]

I think it's just cab off the rank with Foakes. He may not succeed long term, fully accept. But he averaged over 40 in his short test career, is the best gloveman perhaps in the world, and has played the best test innings of the last three years by an Englishman not called Stokes..

It may well be the next cab off the rank, I was more pointing out that if we are going to ignore First Class Averages etc then how do you change a losing side or how do people show they can step up to Test Cricket

 

[Mrjardine]

If the players aren’t there then there is very little that can be done in the here and now.

I totally understood the Roy call as we had tried everything else although I do think Denly opening and Roy 4 would’ve been the sensible option.

You then have the spin problem. Ali at his best is ok and nothing more. It sort of back to the days of emburey, Tufnell, Giles etc where we just had to make do.

We have also stumbled upon Archer really and got very lucky as imagine how this series would’ve played out without him after Anderson’s injury!

The future of our test match side looks pretty bleak at present.

 

[rentaghost]

In my humble opinion, if we are as suggested by some on this thread to ignore First Class Averages etc, then how do you change the make up of the squad?

What we have seen in this ashes series is our top and middle order have some serious flaws in their techniques and mental aptitude to Test match batting. This is something nearly every commentator on TMS and Sky have agreed on. Yes Buttler, Bairstow and Roy are talented and more often than not excel in the white ball formats of the game, but the clear fact remains they struggle in test matches and their techniques have been found wanting.

Surely after any series defeat (even if we draw the last test, its still a defeat in my opinion as the ashes aren't going to be sitting in Lords) it would be common sense to look at other options, be that Foakes, Pope or A N other county player? Or do we keep the same squad and assume that despite not playing County or any available form of red ball cricket they will suddenly improve?

First class averages is the easiest for fans because we don't see players play 4 day cricket enough. At least in football you see players regularly enough to form your own opinion and to feel it has some merit. Wuth cricket its - Test player playing shite, who comes in next? look at cricinfo, pick the next cab on the rank, jobs a goodun. However its a load of old shite for many reasons;

1) Has FC average been made up mainly in Div 1 or Div 2?
2) Is home wicket, the easiest or most difficult in the country?
3) Player A has an average of 32 but an average of 50 over the last 3 years. Player B has an average of 39 consistently throughout his career who is best?
4) Player A has a great looking average but fills his boots with two double hundreds against the weakest attacks but his record against quality bowling looks poor.

Someone like Ollie Pope just looks a great player, front foot, back foot, loads of time when playing shots and at an age where he will still be learning and improving and he has a great first class average as well. hes a no brainer for me. Ive never seen Dom Sibley play for example other than a 20/20 game. He may have all the qualities in the world to be a test cricketer - i dont know and neither does anyone on here so when people are picking a player they have never seen in the next test eleven it makes me smile. If he gets selected I hope its because he has been looked at closely, they recognise he has the game to face top quality quick bowling, he wont automatically become unstuick against quality spin rather than the fact that he has averaged 65 against county attacks over 3 months.

If the players aren’t there then there is very little that can be done in the here and now.

I totally understood the Roy call as we had tried everything else although I do think Denly opening and Roy 4 would’ve been the sensible option.

You then have the spin problem. Ali at his best is ok and nothing more. It sort of back to the days of emburey, Tufnell, Giles etc where we just had to make do.

We have also stumbled upon Archer really and got very lucky as imagine how this series would’ve played out without him after Anderson’s injury!

The future of our test match side looks pretty bleak at present.

Because you championed it and put your whole reputation on the line Joking apart - I was absolutely dead against it but the more people that came in and tried and failed and at the start of the season there was no realistic opener that hadn't been tried at that stage. Its easy to say Roy shouldnt have been picked, harder to say who should have at the time of the first test.

 

[Mrjardine]

First class averages is the easiest for fans because we don't see players play 4 day cricket enough. At least in football you see players regularly enough to form your own opinion and to feel it has some merit. Wuth cricket its - Test player playing shite, who comes in next? look at cricinfo, pick the next cab on the rank, jobs a goodun. However its a load of old shite for many reasons;

1) Has FC average been made up mainly in Div 1 or Div 2?
2) Is home wicket, the easiest or most difficult in the country?
3) Player A has an average of 32 but an average of 50 over the last 3 years. Player B has an average of 39 consistently throughout his career who is best?
4) Player A has a great looking average but fills his boots with two double hundreds against the weakest attacks but his record against quality bowling looks poor.

Someone like Ollie Pope just looks a great player, front foot, back foot, loads of time when playing shots and at an age where he will still be learning and improving and he has a great first class average as well. hes a no brainer for me. Ive never seen Dom Sibley play for example other than a 20/20 game. He may have all the qualities in the world to be a test cricketer - i dont know and neither does anyone on here so when people are picking a player they have never seen in the next test eleven it makes me smile. If he gets selected I hope its because he has been looked at closely, they recognise he has the game to face top quality quick bowling, he wont automatically become unstuick against quality spin rather than the fact that he has averaged 65 against county attacks over 3 months.


Because you championed it and put your whole reputation on the line Joking apart - I was absolutely dead against it but the more people that came in and tried and failed and at the start of the season there was no realistic opener that hadn't been tried at that stage. Its easy to say Roy shouldnt have been picked, harder to say who should have at the time of the first test.

My reputation is in tatters

In fairness I know you didn’t fancy it but as you say it wasn’t easy picking out another viable option.

 

[Mr Redknapp]

Burns shouldn't be anywhere near opening for the ashes. Bairstow always looks like he's on the verge of bursting into tears and taking his ball home

Some people on here would welcome that atm

 

[Mrjardine]

Burns shouldn't be anywhere near opening for the ashes. Bairstow always looks like he's on the verge of bursting into tears and taking his ball home

I like Bairstow as a player but there is something very unlikeable about him.

 

[rentaghost]

I like Bairstow as a player but there is something very unlikeable about him.

i agree. Kicking off when the gloves were going to be taken off him. Its almost that he has no self awareness about how poor he has been of late or how vulnerable his position deserves to be.

 

[the dark one]

i agree. Kicking off when the gloves were going to be taken off him. Its almost that he has no self awareness about how poor he has been of late or how vulnerable his position deserves to be.

Fuck knows why he wants the gloves anyway. He needs to buckle down, just concentrate on scoring runs and stop acting like a ****. He's a very talented batsman, but seems to be getting drawn into a battle of the big guns of Butler, Roy ,Stokes' and himself. This is f***ing test match cricket we are talking here, not a 50 over slog, as entertaining as we are.
We are far too heavily loaded with stroke makers in that side. They need to get their heads down and battle like fuck, but it won't happen, as there will be success in the 50 over and T20, and all will be forgiven.

 

[TopCat]

Fuck knows why he wants the gloves anyway.

Because he (thinks he) can get away with a batting average in the mid-30s if he has the gloves too

 

[the dark one]

Because he (thinks he) can get away with a batting average in the mid-30s if he has the gloves too

Yeh, but he should ditch the gloves and get on with being a proper batsman, head down arse up .it's frightening that Butler gets in as a batsman only at test match level.if early wickets have fell, he ain't the lad to steady the ship ,he looks uncomfortable. He seems stuck, not sure whether to go or not.

 

[Voice of fair play]

In my humble opinion, if we are as suggested by some on this thread to ignore First Class Averages etc, then how do you change the make up of the squad?

What we have seen in this ashes series is our top and middle order have some serious flaws in their techniques and mental aptitude to Test match batting. This is something nearly every commentator on TMS and Sky have agreed on. Yes Buttler, Bairstow and Roy are talented and more often than not excel in the white ball formats of the game, but the clear fact remains they struggle in test matches and their techniques have been found wanting.

Surely after any series defeat (even if we draw the last test, its still a defeat in my opinion as the ashes aren't going to be sitting in Lords) it would be common sense to look at other options, be that Foakes, Pope or A N other county player? Or do we keep the same squad and assume that despite not playing County or any available form of red ball cricket they will suddenly improve?

It’s only common sense if you off the opinion the replacements will do any better, if you believe that you change it, if you don’t you don’t.

That’s why you have selectors with the eye for talent to be able to transform that on to the test level.

If you just went on averages you would not need selectors!

 

[chunksafc]

It’s only common sense if you off the opinion the replacements will do any better, if you believe that you change it, if you don’t you don’t.

That’s why you have selectors with the eye for talent to be able to transform that on to the test level.

If you just went on averages you would not need selectors!

Well the selectors need to get glasses as our top order is struggling massively. There must be one or 2 County players worth trying or is there an absolute dirth of talent

 

[Voice of fair play]

Well the selectors need to get glasses as our top order is struggling massively. There must be one or 2 County players worth trying or is there an absolute dirth of talent

Your second point!

Why must there be?

For example imo, if a new opener was tried in the Ashes, from the current crop of English batsman playing in a sub standard championship against sub standard bowlers they, would have been asboutely destroyed by the Aussie bowlers imo.

We seen how extremely diffcult it was for opening batsman in this series on both sides!

Imo they is nothing in the county championship in terms of top 3!

 

[The Rat]

The amount of stick this lad gets is fuckin hilarious

Just like trying to blame our top order failings on a number 7

It really is mad

There was even one poster on here slagging off during the World Cup after back to back 100s in knock out games m
The amount of stick this lad gets is fuckin hilarious

Just like trying to blame our top order failings on a number 7

It really is mad

There was even one poster on here slagging off during the World Cup after back to back 100s in knock out games m

 

[chunksafc]

Your second point!

Why must there be?

For example imo, if a new opener was tried in the Ashes, from the current crop of English batsman playing in a sub standard championship against sub standard bowlers they, would have been asboutely destroyed by the Aussie bowlers imo.

We seen how extremely diffcult it was for opening batsman in this series on both sides!

Imo they is nothing in the county championship in terms of top 3!

Then we really are in for years of failure if there is no one coming through

 

[rentaghost]

The amount of stick this lad gets is fuckin hilarious

Just like trying to blame our top order failings on a number 7

It really is mad

There was even one poster on here slagging off during the World Cup after back to back 100s in knock out games m
The amount of stick this lad gets is fuckin hilarious

Just like trying to blame our top order failings on a number 7

It really is mad

There was even one poster on here slagging off during the World Cup after back to back 100s in knock out games m

Most players in the England side can claim to have been mucked about and Bairstow more than most but I dont think he can be given a free pass for his failures because hes been batting higher in the order. He would consider himself a top class batsman and he would expect to be able to score test match runs against quality attacks wherever he bats even though he would prefer to bat 7 and keep wicket. That said some of the criticism of him has been ridiculous. I remember in the middle of the IPL he was getting laughed at on here for getting bowled at a time where he had scored more runs and had a better average and run rate than just about everyone in the tournament.

 

[Steak Pie]

Because he (thinks he) can get away with a batting average in the mid-30s if he has the gloves too

Mid 30s for a keeper is very good. Mid 30s for a keeper in this side is absolutely superb.

 

[The Rat]

Most players in the England side can claim to have been mucked about and Bairstow more than most but I dont think he can be given a free pass for his failures because hes been batting higher in the order. He would consider himself a top class batsman and he would expect to be able to score test match runs against quality attacks wherever he bats even though he would prefer to bat 7 and keep wicket. That said some of the criticism of him has been ridiculous. I remember in the middle of the IPL he was getting laughed at on here for getting bowled at a time where he had scored more runs and had a better average and run rate than just about everyone in the tournament.

Not saying he doesn’t need to be held accountable

He just gets more stick than most as he is a prickly charachter

The irony being we need more like him as the team is far far too nice

We didn’t lose the ashes because our number 7 averaged 30 like

 

[the dark one]

The amount of stick this lad gets is fuckin hilarious

Just like trying to blame our top order failings on a number 7

It really is mad

There was even one poster on here slagging off during the World Cup after back to back 100s in knock out games m
The amount of stick this lad gets is fuckin hilarious

Just like trying to blame our top order failings on a number 7

It really is mad

There was even one poster on here slagging off during the World Cup after back to back 100s in knock out games m