Poll: so should it have been a penalty?

[General Zod]

Tough call but he moved his arm towards the ball after it had travelled about 30 yards. Not sure if it was clear & obvious as it needed a few replays & a lot of time. Hard call for the ref to make one way or the other

 

[Deleted member 6694]

You hear pundits and commentators mention it all the time but you're right its not in the rules.
The penalty today was harsh but there's been worse handballs given in the tournament

Surely it comes from the movement of the hand towards the ball rule below rather than the position of the hand rule? If the arm follow a natural movement (depending on what the player is doing ) when the ball hits the hand then surely you'd simply say the hand/arm will be in a natural position rather than moving towards the ball on purpose.

Persic was bringing his arm down and it's debatable how to interpret this movement of the hand towards the ball. However I take most of what I've said back as I think he was expecting Matuidi to flick the header down towards the goal and Perisic made an attempt to block it on purpose. As you can see in the gif below he brings his left leg right up very high hanging and this certainly isn't what you'd expect given his initial jump. So now I could possibly agree there was intention there as he certainly tries to block it with his leg and therefore also knows he will be blocking it with his arm by bringing his arm and leg together in the way he did.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this about his leg movement, certainly not on TV but could this be what VAR also saw? This gif angle is also the replay that was showing for the ref's screen 5 times just before he walked away and then back again to watch it again while talking to VAR. If you watch it faster then it looks even more obvious as to how he was trying to attempt a block in that area.

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[becs]

No for me.

He was jumping and the ball happened to hit off his hand. It wasn't deliberate IMO.

 

[Bishop Mackem]

looks like a penalty to me like he slaps the ball

 

[Bishop Mackem]

ive changed me mind no pen

Compare the movement of his left and right hand. One is far more unnatural to the other and is influenced by instinctual reactions. Clear pen and fuck any mongoloid who disagrees.

i thought this at first, but his left arm comes down different due to him kicking out his left leg

 

[sonson]

Not enough reason to let it go to a ref's call after VAR. Think it's a marginal penalty but VAR not meant to be for marginal I didn't think.

 

[Black Cat]

ive changed me mind no pen


i thought this at first, but his left arm comes down different due to him kicking out his left leg

So his arm and left left instinctively reacted to the ball. Clear pen.

 

[Bishop Mackem]

So his arm and left left instinctively reacted to the ball. Clear pen.

no, quite simply he kicked his leg out towards the path of the ball, his left arm couldnt drop down by his side becuause of his thigh, your hands and arms have to go somewhere they cant detatch

 

[Scotsmackem]

No way in a million years was it a penalty. His arms were moving as you would expect from jumping for a header, there was no way anyone could react that quickly and handball on purpose.

 

[roberto]

On first glance, it looked like a penalty to me. There was doubt though and the ref wasn't sure so no penalty.

 

[Deleted member 6694]

No way in a million years was it a penalty. His arms were moving as you would expect from jumping for a header, there was no way anyone could react that quickly and handball on purpose.

Watch how his 2 hands go up together but then his left arm comes down faster and his hand then extends slightly open palmed. Now look at the way he also sticks out his left leg rather awkwardly while his head seems to follow the flight of the ball. He went for the block with both his hand and leg as a 'reflex' action in my opinion.

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[Guinness Guzzler]

if it was against England you'd all have been screaming for it and if i5 wasn't given it would be the worst injustustice in the world. Same for the free kick although that was a bit softer.

That's not really a fair argument though, fans are always biased in favour of their own team. I'm sure I've convinced myself many things were a travesty of justice against Sunderland but had it been us committing the foul would be screaming play on.

As a neutral in the final I don't think it's a penalty. I don't think his hand is in an unnatural position, equally I don't think he has time to react and deliberately move his hand towards the ball even if he'd wanted to. No way can you be certain enough that it's deliberate to give it imo, hell even the ref spent an age watching and rewatching it

 

[little e]

It shouldn't be really. It has to be deliberate. How many times do you see a player deliberately handle the ball in a game? Once in a blue moon.

The "it has to be deliberate" is the biggest urban myth around. No such rule exists in the laws of football.

 

[nowtgoodeverhappens]

Yes.

"Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm."


Therefore no infringement of any law of the game.

I get confused with the “deliberate” thing and the “unnatural position” thing. Not sure it’s been clearly defined.

The "it has to be deliberate" is the biggest urban myth around. No such rule exists in the laws of football.

If so, every time the ball hits the hand / arm is an infringement then?

 

[Dogbark]

Watch how his 2 hands go up together but then his left arm comes down faster and his hand then extends slightly open palmed. Now look at the way he also sticks out his left leg rather awkwardly while his head seems to follow the flight of the ball. He went for the block with both his hand and leg as a 'reflex' action in my opinion.

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Not for me. As he swipes his hand through it. Look at where his hand ends up after he touches the ball.

 

[knarfw]

It had all the hallmarks of a classic Howard Webb performance. I mentioned it in the match thread.

Before the Greizmann free kick which lead to the first goal, there was an incident where he clearly gave France the advantage following a foul on one of their players, but Croatia won it back and had an effort on goal themselves - which he allowed. France were furious, but in true Howard Webb style, he 'evened things up' with the poor free kick decision.

The penalty decision showed a lack of control by the referee, but favour was eventually given to the bigger side. I can't accept that a deliberate handball decision was correct considering how close the France player was and what's at stake. Not in a million years for me.

Howard Webb was one of the pundits on Canadian TV and he said it was never a penalty.

 

[HebburnMackem]

Clear as day that he moved his arm towards the ball.

 

[James]

Appalling decision to give it. Bizarre a referee that poor got to officiate a game of such magnitude.

 

[Mainze]

Pathetic decision.

 

[ANonnyMoose]

Yes.. Not that I think he actually aimed to handball it

So thats a no then!

Watch how his 2 hands go up together but then his left arm comes down faster and his hand then extends slightly open palmed. Now look at the way he also sticks out his left leg rather awkwardly while his head seems to follow the flight of the ball. He went for the block with both his hand and leg as a 'reflex' action in my opinion.

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His arm comes down faster as he's trying to kick out his leg - try it, its a natural movement when you try and raise your leg like that, from a high handed position.

But even then, the fact that we are having this discussion shows its not a penalty - the referee has to be SURE to give it.

Can we also talk about the first goal that was both not a free kick and offside (Pogba, standing in front of the keeper who then challenges for the header). Whats the point in VAR if they don't review things like that? There was shirt pulling for a penalty later not given or reviewed which is clear on the replay. The whole approach by FIFA is a joke as ever.

I get confused with the “deliberate” thing and the “unnatural position” thing. Not sure it’s been clearly defined.

Heres the actual beak down of the laws of the game: it has to be deliberate. The "unnatural position" is a short-cut used by English refs to help them make decisions, its not the actual law.