How Can Anyone Be An Atheist?

[fyl2u]

You have just made the leap from the concept of God to organised religion and using one to dismiss the other.

To me, there are 3 potential levels of 'God'.

1) God the creator. How the hell did this amazing universe come from nothing? Science is providing more answers day by day showing how the universe and life on this planet evolved, but how did all this matter come into existence in the first place? It is another one where everyone has to admit 'I don't know' - in much the same way that a relatively short time ago people didn't really know what lay beyond this planet or the scale of the universe. As you go further back to the big bang and what started it, you have to admit that a God or something of great power operating on a level we can barely conceive, could have kick started all this and perhaps the universe we know is something tiny in something much much bigger. Science can not say either way, but I'm pretty certain they did not model each planet, moon, sheep, tree etc by hand. That is stuff that just happened once the universe started. Equally it could have been by chance.

2) The all seeing ever living God. If you admit that something far bigger and more powerful could create the Universe then it is equally possible that they can view the whole Universe and could be older than it is. It might not be the same God as the creator, but it is possible and again we can not prove either way.

Almost all religions are based on the first two existing in some form or other. But then you have....

3) The God of organised religion. This is a God (or Gods) who give your life purpose, who say what you can eat, what you can drink, what you can wear, if you should have a beard or not, what you do on certain days of the week, who you should marry, who you should love, who you should kill. A god that takes a daily interest in your specific life, a god that can view the whole Universe but watches to see how you behave as a person. In some religions this God has a real vanity issue. You might be the kindest, gentlest most generous person who ever lived and be a shining example of all the qualities the religion holds true, but if you don't believe in the God or worship in the right way at the right time then it is eternal damnation for you. This is a god who controls everything and a god who's teaching is often in conflict with what we can see for ourselves through scientific observation.

Gods 1 and 2 do not have to mean anything about any of the gods in 3. If god 2 existed, it is entirely possible they look at earth and think 'what the hell are you doing'?

Personally I think however the Universe happened, it is so mind blowingly amazing that I personally will never understand it. Either a new branch of physics or a god, who knows but when you think about it, either the universe has always been or it came from nothing. Both are amazingly complex concepts that I doubt any human currently alive can get their heads around it. If that is a God, well so be it, it actually makes little difference.

I don't care if god 2 exists or not, if they did then I'm like an amoeba amongst many to them.

God 3 - Is the one most people argue about when they say God. Such religion is not for me.

You make a few good points in there but I'd say be careful with using the phrase "EQUALLY possible". While some of those things are ALSO possible, they're not necessarily "equally" possible.

Also, I'd differentiate between "god the creator" and "just a creator who isn't a god".

 

[GingerNick]

sadly god 3 is the one that causes all the bother

gods 1 and 2 kind of describe pagan gods who created the planet and made the crops grow or the sun rise...but didn't say you had to nail some poor bugger to a tree because they read a different book from you

when the old gods of nature were worshipped it wasn't to control people it was to explain things they couldn't explain as there was no science to speak of

newer religions are to control people...so a few people can control a lot of people without the need for lots of troops and swords

do as you are told or you will go to hell..that was its sole purpose...books written by men to control uneducated and poor people so they didn't get unhappy by having bugger all..

 

[PinzaC55]

You have just made the leap from the concept of God to organised religion and using one to dismiss the other.

To me, there are 3 potential levels of 'God'.

1) God the creator. How the hell did this amazing universe come from nothing? Science is providing more answers day by day showing how the universe and life on this planet evolved, but how did all this matter come into existence in the first place? It is another one where everyone has to admit 'I don't know' - in much the same way that a relatively short time ago people didn't really know what lay beyond this planet or the scale of the universe. As you go further back to the big bang and what started it, you have to admit that a God or something of great power operating on a level we can barely conceive, could have kick started all this and perhaps the universe we know is something tiny in something much much bigger. Science can not say either way, but I'm pretty certain they did not model each planet, moon, sheep, tree etc by hand. That is stuff that just happened once the universe started. Equally it could have been by chance.

2) The all seeing ever living God. If you admit that something far bigger and more powerful could create the Universe then it is equally possible that they can view the whole Universe and could be older than it is. It might not be the same God as the creator, but it is possible and again we can not prove either way.

Almost all religions are based on the first two existing in some form or other. But then you have....

3) The God of organised religion. This is a God (or Gods) who give your life purpose, who say what you can eat, what you can drink, what you can wear, if you should have a beard or not, what you do on certain days of the week, who you should marry, who you should love, who you should kill. A god that takes a daily interest in your specific life, a god that can view the whole Universe but watches to see how you behave as a person. In some religions this God has a real vanity issue. You might be the kindest, gentlest most generous person who ever lived and be a shining example of all the qualities the religion holds true, but if you don't believe in the God or worship in the right way at the right time then it is eternal damnation for you. This is a god who controls everything and a god who's teaching is often in conflict with what we can see for ourselves through scientific observation.

Gods 1 and 2 do not have to mean anything about any of the gods in 3. If god 2 existed, it is entirely possible they look at earth and think 'what the hell are you doing'?

Personally I think however the Universe happened, it is so mind blowingly amazing that I personally will never understand it. Either a new branch of physics or a god, who knows but when you think about it, either the universe has always been or it came from nothing. Both are amazingly complex concepts that I doubt any human currently alive can get their heads around it. If that is a God, well so be it, it actually makes little difference.

I don't care if god 2 exists or not, if they did then I'm like an amoeba amongst many to them.

God 3 - Is the one most people argue about when they say God. Such religion is not for me.

Too much to address there at the moment (maybe later when I am in the pub) but anyone who says "the Universe couldn't come from nothing" is defeating their own argument because if a god existed before the Universe then there wasn't nothing.
If they make a special plea that the god "existed outside space and time" thats meaningless because time and space may not have existed before the Universe and if they did, there wasn't Nothing. If we accept the special plea and allow god to exist before the Universe then since there was no matter we are entitled to ask how god created Something out of Nothing ?
Simply saying she "spoke the Universe into existence" is absurd unless it can be demonstrated how this works.

 

[Northumberland Rocks]

Haha, yeah, what does Jesus know eh? It's not like Bethlehem United ever had someone like Rodwell leeching off them so JC really didn't understand our pain.

Whatever your view of organised religion and from my very limited knowledge I think JC was probably the first socialist.

I dont think he would be impressed with the actions of Mr Rodwell.

 

[dangermows]

Too much to address there at the moment (maybe later when I am in the pub) but anyone who says "the Universe couldn't come from nothing" is defeating their own argument because if a god existed before the Universe then there wasn't nothing.
If they make a special plea that the god "existed outside space and time" thats meaningless because time and space may not have existed before the Universe and if they did, there wasn't Nothing. If we accept the special plea and allow god to exist before the Universe then since there was no matter we are entitled to ask how god created Something out of Nothing ?
Simply saying she "spoke the Universe into existence" is absurd unless it can be demonstrated how this works.

According to Hawko time did exist before, just in a bent state.

 

[Dagzd1973]

If there is a "God", or some all-powerful, all-seeing """""Grand Creator""""", then how comes when I've been praying to him for a bigger knob ower the last 30 year he's been ignoring me the big beardy omnipotent bastard.

What an arsehole.

 

[dangermows]

If there is a "God", or some all-powerful, all-seeing """""Grand Creator""""", then how comes when I've been praying to him for a bigger knob ower the last 30 year he's been ignoring me the big beardy omnipotent bastard.

What an arsehole.

How tall are you?

 

[Dagzd1973]

How tall are you?

Tall enough for you, honey.

Welcome back, tit.

 

[dangermows]

Tall enough for you, honey.

Yes!!! *drools*

 

[Dagzd1973]

Yes!!! *drools*

Good to see you back on, marrow. People were starting to whisper.

Don't f***ing do it again. You've been warned.

 

[dangermows]

Good to see you back on, marrow. People were starting to whisper.

Don't f***ing do it again. You've been warned.

Fuck sake, thats 32 now

 

[DaveH]

You make a few good points in there but I'd say be careful with using the phrase "EQUALLY possible". While some of those things are ALSO possible, they're not necessarily "equally" possible.

Also, I'd differentiate between "god the creator" and "just a creator who isn't a god".

Fair point about equally, that is certainly not mathematically correct which goes against everything I believe in

 

[dangermows]

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[DaveH]

Too much to address there at the moment (maybe later when I am in the pub) but anyone who says "the Universe couldn't come from nothing" is defeating their own argument because if a god existed before the Universe then there wasn't nothing.
If they make a special plea that the god "existed outside space and time" thats meaningless because time and space may not have existed before the Universe and if they did, there wasn't Nothing. If we accept the special plea and allow god to exist before the Universe then since there was no matter we are entitled to ask how god created Something out of Nothing ?
Simply saying she "spoke the Universe into existence" is absurd unless it can be demonstrated how this works.

I suppose you then have to define 'nothing'. People once believed the air was nothing, until we understood it was something. We see space as 4 dimensional with matter and energy in it. What other things that might exist becomes hard for us to comprehend. Was the 'nothing' before the Universe a more exotic type of matter/energy that either combined or broke up into the matter we know today? Was it something operating in another dimension?

Either way, you always end up at something amazing. Where did the universe we know come from? God or exotic matter, then where did they come from? At some point you get to the point where you say, it has always been there. If it did come from exotic matter then did God create that, or did that come from something else we are yet to discover? As time is one of the dimensions, some say there was no before but that is even harder to understand! Either way it is confusingly interesting.

 

[PinzaC55]

I suppose you then have to define 'nothing'. People once believed the air was nothing, until we understood it was something. We see space as 4 dimensional with matter and energy in it. What other things that might exist becomes hard for us to comprehend. Was the 'nothing' before the Universe a more exotic type of matter/energy that either combined or broke up into the matter we know today? Was it something operating in another dimension?

Either way, you always end up at something amazing. Where did the universe we know come from? God or exotic matter, then where did they come from? At some point you get to the point where you say, it has always been there. If it did come from exotic matter then did God create that, or did that come from something else we are yet to discover? As time is one of the dimensions, some say there was no before but that is even harder to understand! Either way it is confusingly interesting.

The simple way to define Nothing would be "Existence". Either you can have a state of Existence or Nonexistence. If what makes up the Universe has always existed but changes form, then there's no need for a Creator. Since we have Existence now, if someone wants to argue a state of Nonexistence became a state of Existence then they have their work cut out.
This is my favourite clip from the Atheist Experience where "Eric" (a preacher) tries to argue that "Something cannot come from Nothing". The first 10 minutes or so are simply him arguing about having a debate with Matt but it gets better after that.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

You have just made the leap from the concept of God to organised religion and using one to dismiss the other.

To me, there are 3 potential levels of 'God'.

1) God the creator. How the hell did this amazing universe come from nothing? Science is providing more answers day by day showing how the universe and life on this planet evolved, but how did all this matter come into existence in the first place? It is another one where everyone has to admit 'I don't know' - in much the same way that a relatively short time ago people didn't really know what lay beyond this planet or the scale of the universe. As you go further back to the big bang and what started it, you have to admit that a God or something of great power operating on a level we can barely conceive, could have kick started all this and perhaps the universe we know is something tiny in something much much bigger. Science can not say either way, but I'm pretty certain they did not model each planet, moon, sheep, tree etc by hand. That is stuff that just happened once the universe started. Equally it could have been by chance.

2) The all seeing ever living God. If you admit that something far bigger and more powerful could create the Universe then it is equally possible that they can view the whole Universe and could be older than it is. It might not be the same God as the creator, but it is possible and again we can not prove either way.

Almost all religions are based on the first two existing in some form or other. But then you have....

3) The God of organised religion. This is a God (or Gods) who give your life purpose, who say what you can eat, what you can drink, what you can wear, if you should have a beard or not, what you do on certain days of the week, who you should marry, who you should love, who you should kill. A god that takes a daily interest in your specific life, a god that can view the whole Universe but watches to see how you behave as a person. In some religions this God has a real vanity issue. You might be the kindest, gentlest most generous person who ever lived and be a shining example of all the qualities the religion holds true, but if you don't believe in the God or worship in the right way at the right time then it is eternal damnation for you. This is a god who controls everything and a god who's teaching is often in conflict with what we can see for ourselves through scientific observation.

Gods 1 and 2 do not have to mean anything about any of the gods in 3. If god 2 existed, it is entirely possible they look at earth and think 'what the hell are you doing'?

Personally I think however the Universe happened, it is so mind blowingly amazing that I personally will never understand it. Either a new branch of physics or a god, who knows but when you think about it, either the universe has always been or it came from nothing. Both are amazingly complex concepts that I doubt any human currently alive can get their heads around it. If that is a God, well so be it, it actually makes little difference.

I don't care if god 2 exists or not, if they did then I'm like an amoeba amongst many to them.

God 3 - Is the one most people argue about when they say God. Such religion is not for me.

How do those concepts of God equate with the "God of the Living" or "The Living God" and I don't mean anything metaphysical or a divine incarnation as I don't believe in divine incarnations. We are all born exactly the same, as a human being.

I see the universe as an emanation rather than a creation.

Whether that was caused by a "God" or a scientific process is irrelevant to me.

I see the need for a God to be something born from fear of emptiness in the mind.

The same can be said for the need to believe in a soul.

The is no need to fear emptiness, it is what we ultimately are.

And ultimately I am not an entity n this world or the next.

 

[fyl2u]

Whatever your view of organised religion and from my very limited knowledge I think JC was probably the first socialist.

I dont think he would be impressed with the actions of Mr Rodwell.

Sounds like Time Minchin needs a new verse in his song Woody Allen Jesus.

Praise be to magic Woody Allen zombie superhero komodo dragon Jeremy Corbyn Jesus.

Sounds like Time Minchin needs a new verse in his song Woody Allen Jesus.

Praise be to magic Woody Allen zombie superhero komodo dragon Jeremy Corbyn Jesus.

Ffs Time Minchin? Tim Minchin even.

Whatever your view of organised religion and from my very limited knowledge I think JC was probably the first socialist.

I dont think he would be impressed with the actions of Mr Rodwell.

He was a confusing character that JC was. Would he turn the other cheek so that Rodwell could have some more money from his other pocket, or would he be raging and toppling tables over like he did with the money lenders in "his father's house"?

Or maybe he'd just say "fuck it, I'm off into the desert for a month or two to do mushrooms".

 

[Kent_Mackem]

The atheists are seething again. Fancy get angry repeatedly over something you definitely know you are right about. Bizarre.

Using straw man arguments (look it up) just makes you look even more silly.

Neither side on the debate has proof. So if people have a faith or dont go quitely go about their business what is their issue.

Wonder what the raging athiests on here do for there communities when they arent from banging on their computer.

How long do you have? But the amount I do for the community has nothing to do with whether I believe in a god or not.

Also, somebody needs to pull you up on your wrong point above. Being an atheist is the default position. We're all born as atheists. I don't need to provide any proof to explain why I don't believe in one (or any) of the gods.

It's a bit like this:

Non believer: Do you believe in Thor?
Christian: No of course not
Non believer: Why not?
Christian: Well why would I? There is no evidence to show he exists.

Can you spot where the Christian has missed the obvious irony?

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

How long do you have? But the amount I do for the community has nothing to do with whether I believe in a god or not.

I agree on this as many people have a social perspective on the community they live in or a humanist perspective toward their fellow human beings.

The relevant matter is also motivation. Does someone religious perform benevolent actions because they believe it will help them get into heaven or because they think it will result in good karma. Personally, I reject both those reasons and perform any acts of kindness without any thought of reward either in this life or the next which to my understanding is the message of the Buddha in the Diamond Sutra. There should be no self satisfaction involved either. In that regard it could be that atheists actually have an advantage when they perform any acts of kindness or compassion but then again Buddhism is an atheist religion, if religion is the right word.

 

[Northumberland Rocks]

Sounds like Time Minchin needs a new verse in his song Woody Allen Jesus.

Praise be to magic Woody Allen zombie superhero komodo dragon Jeremy Corbyn Jesus.



Ffs Time Minchin? Tim Minchin even.



He was a confusing character that JC was. Would he turn the other cheek so that Rodwell could have some more money from his other pocket, or would he be raging and toppling tables over like he did with the money lenders in "his father's house"?

Or maybe he'd just say "fuck it, I'm off into the desert for a month or two to do mushrooms".

JR would test the patience of a saint mate.

I wish we could put JR in the desert for a month.

Using straw man arguments (look it up) just makes you look even more silly.


How long do you have? But the amount I do for the community has nothing to do with whether I believe in a god or not.

Also, somebody needs to pull you up on your wrong point above. Being an atheist is the default position. We're all born as atheists. I don't need to provide any proof to explain why I don't believe in one (or any) of the gods.

It's a bit like this:

Non believer: Do you believe in Thor?
Christian: No of course not
Non believer: Why not?
Christian: Well why would I? There is no evidence to show he exists.

Can you spot where the Christian has missed the obvious irony?

If all atheists were like you I think I would become a born again christian or a muzy