Wigan make another massive loss

Disco_Pants93 said:
At least when their club folds the fans can go to bed at night being grateful for showing some ambition. It’ll soften the blow
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It’s all disappeared into the realms of millions of posts since, but it’d be good to fish out those posts that criticised us for not paying Wyke a “proper wage”. Probably the same people who wanted us to “give him what he wants” with Stewart.

Let’s not pretend we haven’t made mistakes & everything is perfect, but the above examples are how sometimes you need to keep away from the noise if you’re running a football club. Fans will almost always choose the expensive, exciting option with no consequences to them.

It’ll be interesting to see where Ipswich end up in 2/3 years time. They could either do a Villa, gamble & get to the Premier League, or their play off opponents Derby, be fucked. Either way, the way they’ve approached it suggests it’s shit or bust before it catches up with them.
 
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EFL and PL want to start actually punishing clubs for breaking these rules, and doing it in the season in which the offence was committed. Both Everton and Forest are going to get away with basically not being punished, makes the breaches especially in forests case entirely worth it. Accounting period should run over FYs and accounts ratified before the end of the season and deductions handed out that year. End of the day, only variance in spends will be transfer windows which close in January anyway, rest is predictable wage spends.

Then they want to actually punish properly - 4 points for Forest cheating to stay up is really poor and not worth the paper it’s written on tbh.

And failing to submit accounts like Leicester should just immediately be assumed guilt. And infact come with a harsher penalty - 15 points a season will do it. Instead of pussy footing around. There’s no excuse for not submitting end of year accounts, which will already be produced for HMRC and for shareholder purposes anyway.

It should be up to teams to prove that they have adhered to FFP not for the PL to prove otherwise
 
Binxy said:
Bit shit for the fans of that model when the best it will get you is mid table mediocrity.

And no I don't know what the answer is.
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I think mid table mediocrity for a couple of seasons while football sorts itself out and, maybe with the help of the new regulator, draws up some definitive and realistic guidelines to move forward with , is probably quite sensible.
 
Longy said:
All sounds pretty straight forward in your post but I’m sure there’ll be logical explanations as to why it won’t work. 92 investigations into accounts in a short space of time will be one hurdle. There’ll be a hell of a lot more within accounts than just the bottom line which I’m sure would be somehow manipulated if points deductions are possible. Then you’re looking at retrospective punishment again.

It’s definitely not exciting & frustrating as fuck right now, but I think we all know a change is coming & we appear to be well prepared.

Aye. But as in my post, others call it “showing ambition”. I feel like we’ve shown ambition & ended up in League One because it was mismanaged.

We’ve definitely fucked up too many decisions in the past year, but we’re no reckless.
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That’s why you push the onus back onto the clubs like other sports do and make clubs prove that they are compliant themselves. Make it their job to prove this, not the PL/EFLs job to prove a breach. Then it’s just analysing submissions for inconsistencies and comparing bottom lines
Longy said:
Aye. But as in my post, others call it “showing ambition”. I feel like we’ve shown ambition & ended up in League One because it was mismanaged.

We’ve definitely fucked up too many decisions in the past year, but we’re no reckless.
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Football seem to struggle with this phrasing, but deliberately breaking rules for a competitive advantage is cheating. Forest cheated, Everton cheated, Leicester cheated, as did many others. I’ll eat my head if Ipswich didn’t cheat this season.

As a sport we need to move away from the rhetoric that people are being ambitious and start calling a potato a potato. If you go over the cost cap in rugby you get massive points deductions. In American football you’ll lose titles. In our game we just tut loudly at you.
 
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Longy said:
It’s all disappeared into the realms of millions of posts since, but it’d be good to fish out those posts that criticised us for not paying Wyke a “proper wage”. Probably the same people who wanted us to “give him what he wants” with Stewart.

Let’s not pretend we haven’t made mistakes & everything is perfect, but the above examples are how sometimes you need to keep away from the noise if you’re running a football club. Fans will almost always choose the expensive, exciting option with no consequences to them.

It’ll be interesting to see where Ipswich end up in 2/3 years time. They could either do a Villa, gamble & get to the Premier League, or their play off opponents Derby, be fucked. Either way, the way they’ve approached it suggests it’s shit or bust before it catches up with them.
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Wyke and Stewart are both better than any striker, which is crazy when you consider one had no knee left and the other had a heart attack. To still not have adequate replacements to this day is the point people are making. Nobody is asking for a £80m striker.
 
Longy said:
All sounds pretty straight forward in your post but I’m sure there’ll be logical explanations as to why it won’t work. 92 investigations into accounts in a short space of time will be one hurdle. There’ll be a hell of a lot more within accounts than just the bottom line which I’m sure would be somehow manipulated if points deductions are possible. Then you’re looking at retrospective punishment again.
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Im sure the National League do it where each month they see the accounts, you have to give them a sort of business plan too.

Not sure how Torquay situation could be helped as the owner just seems to have woke up one morning and though nah over this but with constantly looking at the figures you know if somebody is struggling to make it work, current situation you just find out 18 months late.
 
nelford_safc said:
Wyke and Stewart are both better than any striker, which is crazy when you consider one had no knee left and the other had a heart attack. To still not have adequate replacements to this day is the point people are making. Nobody is asking for a £80m striker.
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Oh aye, & I agree 100% with that. But, should we have pushed the wage structure beyond where we wanted to keep Wyke. No, the decision was proven correct. Stewart maybe surprised us, but it was 100% despite the bruised pride of a player choosing Wigan over us.

Should we have given Stewart “what he wanted” (was the cry) when it would have smashed out wage structure, we’d have lost the fee & a player that had doubts over ability to get fit or standard or he did. 100% no.

Should we have signed a more competent centre forward in the last 4/5 windows, well, that’s not even a discussion.

What I’m getting at is some of the difficult decisions that appear penny pinching or unambitious at the moment were actually sensible business decisions that fans wouldn’t have sanctioned.

I’m waiting for the reply about the dozen obvious things they’ve done wrong too like!
 
Longy said:
All sounds pretty straight forward in your post but I’m sure there’ll be logical explanations as to why it won’t work. 92 investigations into accounts in a short space of time will be one hurdle. There’ll be a hell of a lot more within accounts than just the bottom line which I’m sure would be somehow manipulated if points deductions are possible. Then you’re looking at retrospective punishment again.

It’s definitely not exciting & frustrating as fuck right now, but I think we all know a change is coming & we appear to be well prepared.

Aye. But as in my post, others call it “showing ambition”. I feel like we’ve shown ambition & ended up in League One because it was mismanaged.

We’ve definitely fucked up too many decisions in the past year, but we’re no reckless.
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Accounts can still be audited after the deadline to check them and of anyone is found to have lied at the point it’s instance demotion from the league. Basically admit you’ve fucked up and get a x points deduction or lie, get caught a few months later and then face isn’t demotion for lying.
 
Longy said:
It’s all disappeared into the realms of millions of posts since, but it’d be good to fish out those posts that criticised us for not paying Wyke a “proper wage”. Probably the same people who wanted us to “give him what he wants” with Stewart.

Let’s not pretend we haven’t made mistakes & everything is perfect, but the above examples are how sometimes you need to keep away from the noise if you’re running a football club. Fans will almost always choose the expensive, exciting option with no consequences to them.

It’ll be interesting to see where Ipswich end up in 2/3 years time. They could either do a Villa, gamble & get to the Premier League, or their play off opponents Derby, be fucked. Either way, the way they’ve approached it suggests it’s shit or bust before it catches up with them.
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Exactly that. Of course fans will say just pay the wages and show some ambition but 99% of those show little to no interest in the financial side of it all. It comes down to impatience ultimately.
It's funny with players like Wyke as well because even when he was scoring 30 goals for us in one season he was still getting stick but then everyone was up in arms when he went to Wigan. Some of four fans just have really bad fear of missing out. It's the same with Gooch now. Gooch is, and has always been a limited footballer. Not an effective winger but can do a job at full back against lesser sides and works hard. Got his fair share of criticism (and rightly so) but soon as he's gone he's got better and better in some eyes. It wasn't a small number who didn't think Gooch was good enough either but they just didn't want anyone else to have him and when he came back to our place with Stoke Jack Clarke ran rings around him showing exactly why he probably didn't warrant a new deal.

If Ipswich go and do a Villa then fair play to them but as you say it's shit or bust whether that's bust now or in a years time or 2 years time. They're playing the game of running away from it as fast as they can which is great if it works out and you end up with PL money and parachute payments but we all know it doesn't alway end that well. Similarly, Hull are trying to play the same game albeit a bit more gung ho. The reality is Hull are far less likely to go up than Ipswich and Ipswich have still got the massive obstacle of Southampton, Leeds and Leicester to navigate past.
 
safccfas said:
Accounts can still be audited after the deadline to check them and of anyone is found to have lied at the point it’s instance demotion from the league. Basically admit you’ve fucked up and get a x points deduction or lie, get caught a few months later and then face isn’t demotion for lying.
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Except where clubs are really stupid, like Sheffield Wednesday were when they sold their ground in the wrong month, it’s never as straightforward as that though. What clubs to do in these cases is to find loopholes that are at least arguably valid, and sometimes unarguably valid but just not something the rules thought of.

As I understand it Leicester have successfully argued that under EFL rules, they are not obliged to submit last year’s accounts and a business plan because last year they were not in the EFL. They are now trying to argue that they aren’t obliged to submit audited accounts to the EPL either because this year they aren’t in the EPL. Logically, it’s a nonsense that they should be able to argue both these things at once but thanks to the way the rules are written, they appear to have a pretty good case there as well. At the very least, it’s not as simple as you make out.

The most recent championship case was Derby County. Again, not straightforward. They faced multiple charges that they were mostly cleared over. There was an issue over how they valued players contracts that had forensic accountants arguing both sides, the first instance tribunal and the appeal tribunal coming to different conclusions, and even then wasn’t resolved by the tribunal process, but was resolved when Derby gave up the fight and came to an agreement on punishment.

It is no wonder these complex cases take time to be determined, and it is completely unrealistic to expect to do it during the season.
 
nelford_safc said:
Wyke and Stewart are both better than any striker, which is crazy when you consider one had no knee left and the other had a heart attack. To still not have adequate replacements to this day is the point people are making. Nobody is asking for a £80m striker.
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You’re both right which is his point. Not giving them what they wanted was right as neither are worth it. Problem is you an almighty snag if the next off the line are poor, which those front 4 have been so far. I’d still take this season over spending what we don’t have like plenty seem to be.
 
forever changes said:
As an aside are Leicester going to miss out on auto promotion with a points deduction ?
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I’m pretty sure the Premier League can only apply points deduction in the Premier League. So the answer would presumably be no, but they might start next season on a minus if they are promoted.

That’s assuming they are in breach of any rule by not submitting accounts, of course. They are disputing that point.
 
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Fleagle said:
I’m pretty sure the Premier League can only apply points deduction in the Premier League. So the answer would presumably be no, but they might start next season on a minus if they are promoted.

That’s assuming they are in breach of any rule by not submitting accounts, of course. They are disputing that point.
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yeah if lecitester go up..they would start next season with a deudction..if they dont go up..the penalty remians suspnded until next they do..
 
Turnip from the Tip said:
The only way to lead a profitable existence outside the premier league is to have a transfer policy where you sign young, unheard of players, try to develop them and sell them on a lt a large profit.

Surprised nobody has had that idea before now to be honest.
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Or heres an idea, blend those players with some old hesds, accelerating their development, n dont buy shite.
 
Thing is, as has been documented at the time and happens everywhere, if any owner is willing to pay wages then there’s no problems is there? You can get lucky and ‘claim’ it only end in disaster but 99% of the time it doesn’t, the debt bubble in football increases and everyone carries on as normal, pretending they care about football finance. You can have a football opinion on if someone is worth it or not and players will take the money if offered but once you get the car crash of those months of non-payment of wages then us and Reading more recently are starting at extinction.

We had it for years coming through the leagues under the Whelan ownership. The same things were said for 20 years that he’d get bored if we couldn’t get out of the fourth tier, then the third etc. He didn’t get bored though, he funded us and I got to see things that many fans of clubs far bigger than Wigan Athletic have yet to see and may never see (your mates up the road for example). Good job we have a local billionaire to tidy up the nonsense from the last lot and put both my teams in the town back in a positive direction.
The Great MES said:
@dannyt
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dannyt said:
Thing is, as has been documented at the time and happens everywhere, if any owner is willing to pay wages then there’s no problems is there? You can get lucky and ‘claim’ it only end in disaster but 99% of the time it doesn’t, the debt bubble in football increases and everyone carries on as normal, pretending they care about football finance. You can have a football opinion on if someone is worth it or not and players will take the money if offered but once you get the car crash of those months of non-payment of wages then us and Reading more recently are starting at extinction.

We had it for years coming through the leagues under the Whelan ownership. The same things were said for 20 years that he’d get bored if we couldn’t get out of the fourth tier, then the third etc. He didn’t get bored though, he funded us and I got to see things that many fans of clubs far bigger than Wigan Athletic have yet to see and may never see (your mates up the road for example). Good job we have a local billionaire to tidy up the nonsense from the last lot and put both my teams in the town back in a positive direction.
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Willing to pay wages is canny. Given how many times you paid late
 

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