White supremacists matching in Virginia

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Cockney Mackem said:
One example would be that for civil rights campaigners to highlight prejudice against black people in housing, which is 100% proven and leads to the average black household needing to earn twice as much as the average white family does for a comparable quality of life, would be highly provocative to the people who marched for Lee yesterday. But the only way they could not be provocative to the people who marched for Lee yesterday would be to cease to exist. It's simply not an equal situation and to argue that it is gives an entirely undeserved credibility to people who are absolutely appalling and unfairly characterises people who are behaving exactly as you would in their shoes as being as bad as Nazis.
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I don't think I've equated people campaigning for justice in housing and income to Nazis at all.
I'm not talking about this one incident. I mean in general in the US over the past decade or so.
 


TK-421 said:
Yes this is probably accurate. Trump stupid enough to allow himself to be, though.
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Power has a gravity to it like no other. Combined with a personality like that he was always going to be sucked in. I think he knows he's up against a monumental force but part of him genuinely believes he has a hand on the wheel and he's desperately wrestling for control, shame he can't see he's sat in the driver seat of a self driven car headed off a cliff with the world in the backseat.
 
TK-421 said:
I don't think I've equated people campaigning for justice in housing and income to Nazis at all.
I'm not talking about this one incident. I mean in general in the US over the past decade or so.
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In the US over the past decade is a very very narrow and disingenuous period of time over which to measure the two sides of that particular argument stoking things up. And even then I think the things black campaigners and groups in that time would have to be exaggerated by a massive degree to be comparable.
 
Cockney Mackem said:
In the US over the past decade is a very very narrow and disingenuous period of time over which to measure the two sides of that particular argument stoking things up. And even then I think the things black campaigners and groups in that time would have to be exaggerated by a massive degree to be comparable.
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Okay, fair enough. Let's talk about just the past 5 years then. Or whenever antif and BLM became popular. What do you think the balance was then?
 
TK-421 said:
Okay, fair enough. Let's talk about just the past 5 years then. Or whenever antif and BLM became popular. What do you think the balance was then?
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Until antif and BLM start calling for the extermination or forced repatriation of white people I think it's going to remain fairly unbalanced, mind.
 
The Cabbage said:
Until antif and BLM start calling for the extermination or forced repatriation of white people I think it's going to remain fairly unbalanced, mind.
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Tbf I don't think that's low down on their list. I've listened to some of these people talk in the flesh, they're radical all right.

Cockney Mackem said:
Why would my criticism that your chosen time period is too narrow be solved by making it more narrow?
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I'm trying to make the point that there has been a ramping up of racial baiting on both sides over recent years that has led to the violence EXPERIENCED RECENTLY and today/yesterday.
 
TK-421 said:
Tbf I don't think that's low down on their list. I've listened to some of these people talk in the flesh, they're radical all right.
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If genuine racial equality existed in the states BLM simply wouldn't exist. If I was a black man in the United States today I'd be more than a bit chippy about how I was treated. To equate both sides of this argument is a bit disingenuous. We're talking about white supremacists and actual nazis here. All the fiery rhetoric in the world doesn't balance that equation
 
The Cabbage said:
If genuine racial equality existed in the states BLM simply wouldn't exist. If I was a black man in the United States today I'd be more than a bit chippy about how I was treated. To equate both sides of this argument is a bit disingenuous. We're talking about white supremacists and actual nazis here. All the fiery rhetoric in the world doesn't balance that equation
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Cockney Mackem said:
I know what point you're making. The reality doesn't back up your point
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Just so it is absolutely clear. I am not condoning the actions of the alt-right/neo-nazis/not sure if the identitarians were involved but they probably were last night
 
Banks said:
A stupid argument I hear time and time again from idiots is "If they called me a white **** I wouldn't be bothered"

You wouldn't be bothered as it doesn't affect you in every part of your life. You don't walk down the street in fear of being harassed or beating up because you are white. You don't get pulled over by the police because you are white, you don't lose job opportunities because you are white etc.

If all those things impact you then youd be very very bothered.
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Debatable.
 
The King of Um said:
I think the difference is that those groups are doing that because for generations - and in living memory - they have been told that they are inferior, and painted at times as literally sub-human, and have been treated as such economically and politically. So like gay pride, it's a reaction against that - it's not just an embracing of their identity, it's a defiance against all of the times they were told they were inferior, less than human. I don't think you can take that out of the equation. It's not just pride in your culture. It's pride in your culture despite centuries of being told it's shit and worthless.

It's like the statue where this thread kicked off. I get your principled argument about not rewriting history (and I don't think for a moment on this thread you are doing anything other than arguing in good faith, btw). But put yourself in the position of one of the black people who make up about a fifth of Charlottesville's population. Your ancestors - maybe your great-great grandparents were slaves. Treated as property, casually raped, murdered, worked half to death. A war was fought to free them, but some people led the fighting on the side that wanted to keep owning human beings as disposable property. One of the parks in your town, has a big statue of one of those men. Through your property taxes, you have to pay for the upkeep of his statue and the park, commemorating the man who was one of the most successful leaders in the fighting to keep your ancestors as slaves. It's easy for us to be all well, it's only history. But in their shoes, from that perspective, I don't think it would be so easy.
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Good points.

I think a fair compromise would be placing the statue in a Civil War museum or an area dedicated to the history of the Confederacy. That way any black people that find it distasteful don't have to look at it but the posterity of the statue can be preserved.

If this had been a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest or even Jefferson Davies then I would say it was fair enough but Robert E. Lee was far more respectable in his worldview than either of those men where.
 
Tommasi said:
Why do BLM get such a bad rep? Asking the police to stop shooting black people for no reason isnt much of a ask is it?
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Because they incite riots and also are quick to judge an incident as having racial connotations before any investigation takes place. It makes them look like extremists that view all police action against black suspects as racist.
 
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