UK using Trump tactics

[RichB]

The latter.
This was posted in an opinion section of a newspaper oops, just shows the lack of clarity people have on the disease and that the knock on effects.
Similar issue with the 28 day cut off - there’s nothing stopping Covid single handedly causing a complication which persists and ultimately kills on day 29 or day 30.

It does seem an arbitrary number but I guess they need to do a cut off somewhere. There was that muscial actor in the Us who was ill for months before he dies and it was clearly a Covid death

Excess deaths is the best stat for me

 

[robbied1]

I think so too

But there is a fair amount of confusion now

Why ?

Because man more deaths have been exaggerated

 

[RichB]

Because man more deaths have been exaggerated

Where is the evidence you have for this?

 

[Frijj]

@Frijj based on your in depth knowledge of NHS
- if someone is admitted up to hospital struggling with Covid & tests positive on day 1 - and is in hospital continually for 30+ days before dying ......That surely is a Covid related death ?

According to this new 28 day rule would it still be the case....?

If someone recovers , is discharged , and then dies of another cause - then fair enough- that is completely correct that it is not Covid related.

As I understand it, it’s anyone who dies within 28 days of testing positive will be considered a COVID death for statistical purposes.

This is importantly distinct from death certificate data, because someone who had COVID on say, August 1, who was absolutely fine, just happened to test positive, but falls from a window on August 20, would by that measure be a COVID death, but the actual cause of death on the death certificate would not be COVID.

HOWEVER

If you die AFTER 28 days, AND the doctor certifying the death feels that your death WAS COVID related it will appear on the certificate and WILL be counted in the national count

so

if you die in 28 days of any cause but had COVID, you’re counted

if you die after 28 days but the doctor feels like it was COVID related, you’re counted

anything else? Not in the 28 day count

 

[RichB]

As I understand it, it’s anyone who dies within 28 days of testing positive will be considered a COVID death for statistical purposes.

This is importantly distinct from death certificate data, because someone who had COVID on say, August 1, who was absolutely fine, just happened to test positive, but falls from a window on August 20, would by that measure be a COVID death, but the actual cause of death on the death certificate would not be COVID.

HOWEVER

If you die AFTER 28 days, AND the doctor certifying the death feels that your death WAS COVID related it will appear on the certificate and WILL be counted in the national count

so

if you die in 28 days of any cause but had COVID, you’re counted

if you die after 28 days but the doctor feels like it was COVID related, you’re counted

anything else? Not in the 28 day count

Thanks for that - seems pretty senseless way of counting. We have a long standing way of counting cause of deaths using death certification

Why they just cant use that as the figure is a mystery to me. I did see a graph where they plotted the official stats and death certificates where Covid was on it somewhere and there was higher numbers on death certificates.

I guess part of the confusion is that generally its viewed that the cause of death is black and white so easy to categorise - it isnt even when you do an autopsy on people it is often not totally clear

 

[Frijj]

Thanks for that - seems pretty senseless way of counting. We have a long standing way of counting cause of deaths using death certification

Why they just cant use that as the figure is a mystery to me. I did see a graph where they plotted the official stats and death certificates where Covid was on it somewhere and there was higher numbers on death certificates.

I guess part of the confusion is that generally its viewed that the cause of death is black and white so easy to categorise - it isnt even when you do an autopsy on people it is often not totally clear

I agree so unless I’ve misunderstood (possible, as the situation re the count appears v fluid) it doesn’t appear to be the most sense.

I see the death cert as the gold standard and wish that was the official count. But yes as you yourself obviously know very well (much better than I or most on here, given your profession!) even what goes on the cert could be wrong if someone makes a mistake.

It would be the most accurate measure though.

 

[Kenna]

So what if their body fought the virus and by the 29th day the damage done kills them, why isn’t that classed as a COVID death?

 

[Gaggoears]

So what if their body fought the virus and by the 29th day the damage done kills them, why isn’t that classed as a COVID death?

Mainly so gumbo and cock can limit the damage caused. It's a sick joke.

 

[SAFCOldie]

So what if their body fought the virus and by the 29th day the damage done kills them, why isn’t that classed as a COVID death?

It will be, what else do you think they will be put on the death certificate

 

[Ghfd]

It will be, what else do you think they will be put on the death certificate

Again the government released a statement yesterday stating the following

if someone dies within 28 days of a positive Covid test, it is classed as being a Covid death. Ok understand that?

after this date the cause is underlying conditions. See how that’s worded. Covid could be an under lying condition but for statistical purposes it’s not registered as a Covid death. Understand that?

therefore the government will claim a successful reduction in the death charts, understand that?

then we get numerous threads stating figures are exaggerated and yet again the divide and rule comes into play and whilst that is going on, they dish out a few gongs and multi million contracts to virtual silence

understand that? Then daft sods like you vote them back into power in 2024

 

[SAFCOldie]

Again the government released a statement yesterday stating the following

if someone dies within 28 days of a positive Covid test, it is classed as being a Covid death. Ok understand that?

after this date the cause is underlying conditions. See how that’s worded. Covid could be an under lying condition but for statistical purposes it’s not registered as a Covid death. Understand that?

therefore the government will claim a successful reduction in the death charts, understand that?

then we get numerous threads stating figures are exaggerated and yet again the divide and rule cones into play and whilst that is going on, they dish out a few gongs and multi million contracts to virtual silence

understand that?

They already have a successful reduction in the death rates, they could have applied this formula months ago like a lot of other countries if they wanted to appear in better shape Nope, they needed the higher death rates at that time to instill the fear , narrative & control, this is the calm before the storm, which is next flu season when the deaths can be hijacked again. You've got all this the wrong way around Carty.

 

[Ghfd]

They already have a successful reduction in the death rates, they could have applied this formula months ago like a lot of other countries if they wanted to appear in better shape Nope, they needed the higher death rates at that time to instill the fear , narrative & control, this is the calm before the storm, which is next flu season when the deaths can be hijacked again. You've got all this the wrong way around Carty.

There you go. It’s impossible talking with you oldie, you are too far gone for rational debate. Thanks for the reply, you’ve numbed me into ignore feature time. Please do the same to me

good bye

 

[raindog]

As I understand it, it’s anyone who dies within 28 days of testing positive will be considered a COVID death for statistical purposes.

This is importantly distinct from death certificate data, because someone who had COVID on say, August 1, who was absolutely fine, just happened to test positive, but falls from a window on August 20, would by that measure be a COVID death, but the actual cause of death on the death certificate would not be COVID.

HOWEVER

If you die AFTER 28 days, AND the doctor certifying the death feels that your death WAS COVID related it will appear on the certificate and WILL be counted in the national count

so

if you die in 28 days of any cause but had COVID, you’re counted

if you die after 28 days but the doctor feels like it was COVID related, you’re counted

anything else? Not in the 28 day count

But can you sure Boris didn't use his Black magic and resurrect 5000 of them?

 

[Frijj]

Are you supporting her views or highlighting her potential mistake there?

Most COVID death certificates (and I’ve seen hundreds of them) look something like this

1A - Viral pneumonitis
1B - COVID19
1C - (any other factor)

2 - Any underlying causes which may have contributed

Because COVID causes viral pneumonitis, I have a sneaky suspicion that she’s wrong.

The ONS give ICD-10 codes (codes for every individual medical condition that exists) to every death based on what is in on the death cert

Viral pneumonitis belongs in a group called influenza and pneumonia

The ONS report the number of deaths of all causes in the influenza and pneumonia group as...influenza and pneumonia deaths

Wendy is most likely wrong and has been caught our reading statistics she doesn’t understand

to clarify this point, I have now seen the actual briefing this came from. There’s a footnote that says deaths attributable to pneumonia-related causes under “influenza and pneumonia” which also have COVID on the death certificate, are excluded from the “influenza and pneumonia” count

So there absolutely will be COVID deaths in there, just not many, as it’s unlikely they will be down as viral pneumonitis with no COVID cause code.

It’s testament to the way (as a society not a govt) we’ve managed to suppress COVID but I am still skeptical of the number of “influenza and pneumonia“ deaths

So Wendy is probably right and I’ve been caught out for not reading the footnotes