Hongkongphooey
Striker
He still had our 4 strikers fit though, oh had on
Tony Mowbray - underrated by much of our fanbase?
- Thread starter 200 Miles Pilgrim
- Start date
GordonMuchallNo1Fan
Striker
Underated by Speakman who tried to get rid of him in the summer. Suddenly underrated by some fans after one bad run, a lot of whom then had Dodds down as Guardiola after beating WBA and Leeds.
superhans1
Central Defender
Yeah but then you look at the form of teams that don't change their manager and you still see long sequences of bad results followed by good results followed by bad results, all the time. Sheff Wed / QPR might have gone on these runs even if they hadn't changed manager. And how many teams change their manager and results don't improve? As I posted in thread the other day, Klopp won 6 of his first 17 league games and finished season with Liverpool's lowest points total for four years.
I'm not saying managers have no impact, and probably in some cases they do have a big impact. But my feeling is it's a minority of cases and I think the effect is much smaller than people think, especially in the short term. And I think it's not as important as a key player. Hypothetically, I'd be happy to have Beale next year say if it meant getting Amad.
I'd be genuinely interested to see analysis on this, considering football fans' obsession with managers. One of the reasons I think the effect is small (at least in the short term) is because it doesn't move betting odds much. Odds are extremely accurate estimates of true probabilities, and if just one key player is out of the team the odds instantly move significantly to take account of this impact of a team's chances of winning. But when a manager is sacked/appointed, the odds hardly seem to move (from casual observation - I haven't studied this meticulously), suggesting the managerial change probably doesn't affect the team's chances, at least in the short term.
Flea Market Trader
Winger
Tony Mowbray achievements here in providing us with the best footballing side we’ve seen in quite a while last season isn’t an underachievement and one that is sound.y noted respectfully by the majority of fans.
PitYacker
Striker
Whilst Tony did a great job, and exceeded my expectations, I still believe we got to a point where both parties were probably wanting an out. Anyone thinking his last couple of months was a tactical masterclass are living with rose tinted spectacles on.
That’s not to say he’d do a load better than what we’ve done after he left, but that’s a reflection of the idiots in charge and the people they have employed since.
It’s like you have a nice Volvo but get bored so trade it in for an old Fiat Punto with a blown head gasket just because it had go faster stripes on it. Then wonder why you’re broken down in a lay-by on the M1.
That’s not to say he’d do a load better than what we’ve done after he left, but that’s a reflection of the idiots in charge and the people they have employed since.
It’s like you have a nice Volvo but get bored so trade it in for an old Fiat Punto with a blown head gasket just because it had go faster stripes on it. Then wonder why you’re broken down in a lay-by on the M1.
red mackem
Midfield
Not now surely
Alfa
Striker
You make some excellent points - I’d certainly agree Klopp would struggle if presented with our arrray of striking options!
I also think a good manager can provide a huge boost both within the dressing room and to the fan base (almost the opposite effect the Beale appointment had).
If you look at the galvanising affect the Keane appointment had on the whole club it demonstrates just how much of a positive impact the right appointment can have. I appreciate Keane isn’t the perfect example as his tenure obviously went downhill subsequently and I wouldn’t advocate reappointing him now but merely use him as an example of how much of a boost an exciting appointment can have.
chriswallace85
Striker
You could argue Harvey/Speakman/KLD provided us with it. Mowbray guided it.
Of course we were already playing good football when he arrived anarl.
Recruitment undoubtedly has not been good enough.He still had our 4 strikers fit though, oh had on
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superhans1
Central Defender
Yeah there's definitely examples. Peter Reid was probably the best one in my lifetime. Even say Di Canio seemed to lift the players for a while. But who knows if that was players pulling their fingers out as relegation loomed? At the other end of the spectrum there are the likes of David Moyes who on paper seems to be a good manager but he had zero impact. Keane's an interesting one because he did have good players. The drumaville money meant we suddenly started paying high wages to attract better players. Take Keane's first game away to derby, I was there and remember the delirium when Ross Wallace scored the winner. Everyone including me put the win down to Roy Keane. But that was Ross Wallace's debut too!
Alfa
Striker
Or an inspirational manager gets the best out of players. You cite Ross Wallace as an example, I liked him as a player but outside Scotland we are the biggest club he ever played for in a career that could aruguably be labelled as journeyman.
Turner the Cat
Central Defender
Dack has turned out to be a very bad signing. However, he did play 33 times last year so there was hope he might contribute this year.
Gooch, Stewart, Pritchard, Batth have all gone plus Evans is crocked. All experienced professionals unavailable. Losing all of them isnt an issue. The issue is replacing experienced professionals with kids and an injured Dack. Its clear our squad lacks experience. Its clear Mowbray believed that as well.
I agree Simms was what we needed not who we signed.
Your'e not answering the key question though. Mowbray had to go to be replaced by who? Who was going to do better within the constraints and circumstances listed?
chriswallace85
Striker
I think anyone understating the affect a good coach / manager can have are completely kidding themselves.
We saw first hand what a difference it can make in the short term going from a complete gonk like Lee Johnson, to somebody with a semblance of a clue like Alex Neil.
The manager will always be your most important signing.
Where Roy Keane's concerned, you have to think how hopeless some of the players we already had were before he got here. Nosworthy, Murphy, and to a lesser extent Collins, Leadbitter and Whitehead.
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What is the clubs long term ambition?
---Nemo---
Striker
What I don't understand is why we didn't treat someone with the wealth of experience Mowbray has a little more graciously and offer him a move upstairs. On the new gaffer search I'm hoping to see a few different boxes ticked. No more personal development style coaches, head or otherwise. I'd prefer to see someone with a good grasp of tactics, someone who can influence/change games, someone who can motivate and lead by example. I'd also like to see the addition of a couple of lads with a decent pedigree in the game, natural leaders who exude authority and understand the game from the inside. We have our quota of milksops dishing out cuddles and blowing smoke up the kids arses.
HoxtonMackem
Winger
This.
OP seems to have forgotten about Ipswich, Boro and Huddersfield at home just a few months ago.
Did miracles for us last season but his tenure had ran its course. Barring those couple of September wins we had V Southampton, QPR and Blackburn, we looked a spent force.
He will be fondly remembered for years to come mind, for last season.
Sadly we've managed to make a total **** up of almost everything since.
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TikaTakaTico
Goalkeeper
Not underrated at all.
The best manager we've had since allardyce- that is a long time ago and a lot of managers ago. .
It's a shame because he really fit in well here and the board should really have listened to him.
Instead they've learnt nothing.
The best manager we've had since allardyce- that is a long time ago and a lot of managers ago. .
It's a shame because he really fit in well here and the board should really have listened to him.
Instead they've learnt nothing.
chriswallace85
Striker
superhans1
Central Defender
We also saw what difference it made going to highly rated managers like David Moyes.
As for Alex Neil, his first five results were:
Draw against AFC Wimbledon
Loss at home to MK Dons
Draw at home to Burton
Won against Wigan
Drawn 0-0 against Charlton
That's one win in five - worse than Beale.
Also, as I posted at the time in an eulogy to Bailey Wright, it was interesting that by the end of the season, Alex Neil's record was almost identical to Lee Johnson's, both with Bailey Wright in the team and without Bailey Wright in the team. The difference was that Neil had Wright available for selection a lot more, and with Wright in the team we were much more solid at the back and picking up more points, across the whole season.
In my previous post I agreed that there are some cases of managers making an immediate impact but I think it's quite unusual. My feeling is that the impact of managers is much smaller and it takes longer than most people think. I'd be curious to see a proper analysis on it.
Mowbray is a journeyman Championship manager, who has achieved next to nothing in his entire managerial career who found himself at the right club at the right time. I thank him for what he did for us but he is not the answer to getting us out of the Championship. If he were he would still be with us
If I were being ultra critical you could argue with Diallo, Clarke, Stewart and Simms for chunks of the season we underachieved
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