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The Pep myth


chunkyshanhawk53 said:
I’m sure I’ll get tons of abuse for this, so I’ll caveat in advance. He’s clearly a top coach. This is more a “is he as good as he thinks he is?” post

it’s now 10 years since he won the champions league. Despite having pretty much unlimited money at City and coaching Bayern, one of the biggest clubs on the planet

He got somewhat fortunate with Barca as he inherited arguably the best player ever in his prime

look at his City numbers. He’s been great domestically. But he should be when you look at what he’s bought. The transfer fees are from memory, so tell me I’m wrong

Ederson £35m (one of the highest fees ever at the time)
Walker £50m
Mendy £50m (even without the news he’s been crap)
Cancelo £40m+
Dias, Stones, Ake, Laporte at a combined £220m ish
Rodri £60m
De Bruyne £57m
Silva £35m
Jesus £27m
Mahrez £60m
Grealish £100m
Torres £25m

there will be more. Probably only one looks a shocker, but given the money surely he has to win more?

who has he sold at a profit? Sane?

who has he developed? Foden?

I’ll get pelters, but 10 years since a CL. With that money. He’s not the genius he thinks he is?
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They'd make a net profit if they sold Haaland 😉
 
I think the demise of De Bruyne has affected them as much as Rodri.
Offensively although they obviously have other threats he was the one who provided the most killer passes and moments he was hugely productive, while Rodri ensured protection against the counter.
Players like those two are very hard to replace their absence has effected the whole rhythm of the team and effectiveness.
 
vinegar hill said:
I think the demise of De Bruyne has affected them as much as Rodri.
Offensively although they obviously have other threats he was the one who provided the most killer passes and moments he was hugely productive, while Rodri ensured protection against the counter.
Players like those two are very hard to replace their absence has effected the whole rhythm of the team and effectiveness.
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one issue for Pep is they have spent vast sums on midfielders to cover those roles...and the signings dont seem to be up to it..now they might not have ever been able to get another rodri or de brueyene..but they have signed people who cant make the first team.

Also is foden supposed to be de bureynes replacement? He was player of the year last year but apparently not as good this year
 
If DeBruyne was fit enough to come on then why not play him from the start?
Really get the feeling Pep has fallen out with him.
 
kildaremackem said:
one issue for Pep is they have spent vast sums on midfielders to cover those roles...and the signings dont seem to be up to it..now they might not have ever been able to get another rodri or de brueyene..but they have signed people who cant make the first team.

Also is foden supposed to be de bureynes replacement? He was player of the year last year but apparently not as good this year
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I think players playing in and coming back late from the Euros has also affected City more than most.
 
cluffy said:
If DeBruyne was fit enough to come on then why not play him from the start?
Really get the feeling Pep has fallen out with him.
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Do think there were signs in the 2nd half of last season that De Bruyne's not quite the player he was but him being on the bench for so long yesterday whilst they were getting so comprehensively outplayed smacked of a manager trying to prove some sort of point and putting his own ego ahead of the good of the team.
 
Maravilla said:
Do think there were signs in the 2nd half of last season that De Bruyne's not quite the player he was but him being on the bench for so long yesterday whilst they were getting so comprehensively outplayed smacked of a manager trying to prove some sort of point and putting his own ego ahead of the good of the team.
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De Bruyne is 33 now, Now I'm not saying he's not a good player cos he would probably get into most top teams, however, maybe his motivation and work rate just isn't the same anymore ?
 
RichD said:
De Bruyne is 33 now, Now I'm not saying he's not a good player cos he would probably get into most top teams, however, maybe his motivation and work rate just isn't the same anymore ?
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fancies going to saudi at the end of the year I think..and has won everything already at City..one of the commentators reckons he has put on weight and is out of condiiton,...I wish I was as out of condition as him!
 
I would argue there was a bigger financial disparity between Man United and the rest for the first 17/18 years of Fergie's tenure (until Abramovic) than City and the rest. Man United and Chelsea have outspent them on transfers for starters.

Think the difference between him and Fergie is Fergie had one way of playing and continuously dismantled and rebuilt the squad whereas Pep has kept much of the squad together - Ederson, Walker, Stones, KDB, Gundogan, Bernardo etc - but evolved tactically almost every season. Every time anyone seemed to get close to them he'd find some tweak to freshen things up. Think the fact that no team has ever challenged them for more than two consecutive seasons without significantly dropping off is overlooked too. It just mentally destroy you to hit 98 points etc and still fall short.

Think the current City team just seems very patched together. Lots of players who are either on the decline, out of form or just not quite up to standard. Last time this happened was when they let Kompany go, Laporte got injured and they played Fernandinho at CB all season. But they walked the league the following season without playing a striker.
 
Seaham Towny said:
The truth is somewhere in the middle. Yes he’s had good squads and spent money.

He’s also produced the best football most of us will ever see at Barca and then dominated our own league. Even with Klopp breathing down his neck at times.

He is currently the best football coach on the planet and I don’t think it’s debatable.


Phillips was a striker when we signed him? Sess only ever played there when we didn’t have another fit.

In Pep’s tenure at Barca he had Eto’o, Zlatan and Villa.

Yet Messi predominantly played through the middle
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Currently, absolutely- but in terms of active managers- he's never had an achievement like Mourinho winning the champions league with Porto. I think questioning the fact that he's only ever had the best teams to work with is valid.
Whilst his Barcelona team were incredible- he would have likely still won the same trophies if he'd stuck prime Messi on the wing and prime Ibrahimovic upfront. It was an embarrassment of riches.
All the titles in a row is impressive, but I personally think Pellegrini's title win with them was the most impressive individual title they have won.

Phillips was a right back at Watford iirc. And Sess played his best games for us as a striker imo (but we played with two strikers iirc). But he was bought as a winger, which is where he'd played at psg.
On that note- Wenger was the one who made Henry a forward. I think that's equally impressive really, considering how dominant he was in the PL.
I mean Messi is the greatest ever player most likely, so I don't know how much credit we can give Pep for putting him as close to the opposition goal as possible.
 
TikaTakaTico said:
Currently, absolutely- but in terms of active managers- he's never had an achievement like Mourinho winning the champions league with Porto. I think questioning the fact that he's only ever had the best teams to work with is valid.
Whilst his Barcelona team were incredible- he would have likely still won the same trophies if he'd stuck prime Messi on the wing and prime Ibrahimovic upfront. It was an embarrassment of riches.
All the titles in a row is impressive, but I personally think Pellegrini's title win with them was the most impressive individual title they have won.

Phillips was a right back at Watford iirc. And Sess played his best games for us as a striker imo (but we played with two strikers iirc). But he was bought as a winger, which is where he'd played at psg.
On that note- Wenger was the one who made Henry a forward. I think that's equally impressive really, considering how dominant he was in the PL.
I mean Messi is the greatest ever player most likely, so I don't know how much credit we can give Pep for putting him as close to the opposition goal as possible.
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it will always hang over Pep that he only won things with the best teams..whereas Ferguson started at the very bottom and won stuff with aberdeen they havent won since...clough won things his clubs may never win again..mourinho won a champions league at Porto...
 
Definitely Maybe said:
I would argue there was a bigger financial disparity between Man United and the rest for the first 17/18 years of Fergie's tenure (until Abramovic) than City and the rest. Man United and Chelsea have outspent them on transfers for starters.

Think the difference between him and Fergie is Fergie had one way of playing and continuously dismantled and rebuilt the squad whereas Pep has kept much of the squad together - Ederson, Walker, Stones, KDB, Gundogan, Bernardo etc - but evolved tactically almost every season. Every time anyone seemed to get close to them he'd find some tweak to freshen things up. Think the fact that no team has ever challenged them for more than two consecutive seasons without significantly dropping off is overlooked too. It just mentally destroy you to hit 98 points etc and still fall short.

Think the current City team just seems very patched together. Lots of players who are either on the decline, out of form or just not quite up to standard. Last time this happened was when they let Kompany go, Laporte got injured and they played Fernandinho at CB all season. But they walked the league the following season without playing a striker.
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Ferguson had one way of playing?
He played various different formations and variations at different times. 1999 team played 4-4-2, later teams played 4-3-3. Even in 4-4-2, he played with different central midfield and striker combinations depending on requirement. Keane went from box-to-box to holding midfielder. Irwin went from right to left back. Scholes dropped deeper as he got older. He man-marked Pirlo with Park in Europe.Cantona and Sheringham played more as a 10. Cole and Yorke played as pair of strikes. Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo played as front three. Could go on....
Ferguson was not always a pleasant bloke, particularly when crossed, but he created and tweaked many excellent teams.

Guardiola is presented as some sort of genius when he had most success playing Cruyff tactics and with added "luck" of La Masia producing Messi, Iniesta, Xabi, Busquets, Pique and Puyol et al....
 
Spargel said:
Ferguson had one way of playing?
He played various different formations and variations at different times. 1999 team played 4-4-2, later teams played 4-3-3. Even in 4-4-2, he played with different central midfield and striker combinations depending on requirement. Keane went from box-to-box to holding midfielder. Irwin went from right to left back. Scholes dropped deeper as he got older. He man-marked Pirlo with Park in Europe.Cantona and Sheringham played more as a 10. Cole and Yorke played as pair of strikes. Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo played as front three. Could go on....
Ferguson was not always a pleasant bloke, particularly when crossed, but he created and tweaked many excellent teams.

Guardiola is presented as some sort of genius when he had most success playing Cruyff tactics and with added "luck" of La Masia producing Messi, Iniesta, Xabi, Busquets, Pique and Puyol et al....
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yeah almost uniquely among managers fergie evolved with the times...partly by having the wit to change his assistants frequently....and knew when to phase players out...
 
Not one of Fergusons former players has become a half decent manager/coach.
He never signed a decent goalkeeper until the football agency of Stretford/Olsen & that former centre half got going & he signed Schmeichel.( Danish,like Olsen,and of course,Sorensen) That Scottish goalkeeper, Leighton,was treated so badly the pair haven't spoken since.
Man Utd were once the richest club in the world.Then Ferguson & The Glazers arrived.
 
Angelic Cynic said:
Not one of Fergusons former players has become a half decent manager/coach.
He never signed a decent goalkeeper until the football agency of Stretford/Olsen & that former centre half got going & he signed Schmeichel.( Danish,like Olsen,and of course,Sorensen) That Scottish goalkeeper, Leighton,was treated so badly the pair haven't spoken since.
Man Utd were once the richest club in the world.Then Ferguson & The Glazers arrived.
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Carrick?
Van Nistelroy?
Bruce? 🤪
 
Angelic Cynic said:
Not one of Fergusons former players has become a half decent manager/coach.
He never signed a decent goalkeeper until the football agency of Stretford/Olsen & that former centre half got going & he signed Schmeichel.( Danish,like Olsen,and of course,Sorensen) That Scottish goalkeeper, Leighton,was treated so badly the pair haven't spoken since.
Man Utd were once the richest club in the world.Then Ferguson & The Glazers arrived.
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man utd werent the richest club in the world prior to ferguson..he may them that...they are probaby still in the top 5 in the world in terms of what they would sell for...
cluffy said:
Carrick?
Van Nistelroy?
Bruce? 🤪
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laurent blanc played under fergie didnt he?
Has won four french titles as a manager.
Gordon Strachan was an OK manager..won stuff, operated in the pemier league for a long time.
 
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