The Origins of Covid (discussion of theories)



Mick666 said:
This is the thing. The same agencies probably all rated SadamH’s 45mins missile threat as “high confidence”.
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what a load off rubbish, this again.

You do know it was a newspaper that put two different parts of the report together to come up with that, right? ( I bet you haven't even read the report.

What was really said was, but was badly written, was that the Iraqi army could have rocket assets onto the field of battle within 45 mins, as the scud program was highly mobile and always on alert. Something which we did see in action during the war.

Later on it was later said in the same report, that a British base was in range of Iraqis long range missile program, so a well know shite newspaper in the UK coined the 45min missile threat to Britain, the mistake the government made was to not come out publicly and correct the newspapers claims.

But you likely know this already and are pushing "misinformation" to prove a point.


With regards covid, lets say it was a lab leak ( it has happened before on the Russian / China border with H1N1 virus ) was the leak an accident or done on purpose?

You do know there's very good reasons why if it was a lab leak, why it wouldnt go public, if you dont know why, you should go and educate yourself to what happens when a population is blamed for something, plenty of history out there, I wont tell you as you like to research your own facts.

Also I would like to point out for balance, we have seen viruses cross over from the animal world many times in the past, H1N1 which I talked about above is thought to have come from swine flu that was rampant around 20 years before the Spanish flu killed millions.

I do have one last question though, are you against vaccines in general, are you an anti-vaccine person or just anti-covid vaccine.
 
chrismisterx said:
what a load off rubbish, this again.

You do know it was a newspaper that put two different parts of the report together to come up with that, right? ( I bet you haven't even read the report.

What was really said was, but was badly written, was that the Iraqi army could have rocket assets onto the field of battle within 45 mins, as the scud program was highly mobile and always on alert. Something which we did see in action during the war.

Later on it was later said in the same report, that a British base was in range of Iraqis long range missile program, so a well know shite newspaper in the UK coined the 45min missile threat to Britain, the mistake the government made was to not come out publicly and correct the newspapers claims.

But you likely know this already and are pushing "misinformation" to prove a point.


With regards covid, lets say it was a lab leak ( it has happened before on the Russian / China border with H1N1 virus ) was the leak an accident or done on purpose?

You do know there's very good reasons why if it was a lab leak, why it wouldnt go public, if you dont know why, you should go and educate yourself to what happens when a population is blamed for something, plenty of history out there, I wont tell you as you like to research your own facts.

Also I would like to point out for balance, we have seen viruses cross over from the animal world many times in the past, H1N1 which I talked about above is thought to have come from swine flu that was rampant around 20 years before the Spanish flu killed millions.

I do have one last question though, are you against vaccines in general, are you an anti-vaccine person or just anti-covid vaccine.
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Did read the report actially and a number of supplementary sources. Point is that the administration were happy to run with it and allow the spin to play. There is a disconnect between the administration of the day and various departments of the civil service etc.

Same same with the way CV19 played out.

And I think you are agreeing with half my points. There are very good reasons to cover it up if it was a lab leak. I think ive made that point. People lie about using someone else milk in the fridge at work never mond causing a global pandemic that killed millions and fked the global economy.

I bet the Chinese government were ‘like wtaf, those dipsh@ts at Wuhan have done what, right, what to do about this .... hmmmm .... there’s a wet meat market down the road isnt there? ‘
 
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Mick666 said:
Did read the report actially and a number of supplementary sources. Point is that the administration were happy to run with it and allow the spin to play. There is a disconnect between the administration of the day and various departments of the civil service etc.

Same same with the way CV19 played out.

And I think you are agreeing with half my points. There are very good reasons to cover it up if it was a lab leak. I think ive made that point. People lie about using someone else milk in the fridge at work never mond causing a global pandemic that killed millions and fked the global economy.

I bet the Chinese government were ‘like wtaf, those dipsh@ts at Wuhan have done what, right, what to do about this .... hmmmm .... there’s a wet meat market down the road isnt there? ‘
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There is a big difference between incompetence and conspiracy and sometimes its just not in the publics interest to be told the truth, thats just a fact. Stuff is kept from us all the time.

So if you have read the report, you have to admit the government never once said we ( British assets ) could be attacked within 45 mins, do you agree?

How many times have newspapers made stuff up, should the government always correct the papers on every issue, when as you know the government had already released a report that had the truth and facts ( as was known at that time), I think Imo in this case the government made a mistake and should have brought the newspaper to task over the lies that was printed, but thats a mistake not a conspiracy.

Its even worse now with social media when the Government tries to correct misinformation, what happens, we get told its evidence of the government covering up or lying, its a no win situation for them.

So as laypeople without all the facts we have to look at what happened with hindsight and what is really out there.

We have a good idea the first case of covid was in Nov 2019, we know this was a person from the Hubei province, but we cant be 100% sure this was case zero, but so far its the furthest back that has been traced for the outbreak, its widely known that there was 5 cases a day reported of this new pneumonia of unknown cause, it had mild to deadly effects, its thought many people had a milder wild version which led to the spread so fast. The first cases happened before it was known to be a covid and wasn't in the wet market either, it was days later that it seemed to spread to the wet market. I think it was a couple of weeks before it was known to be covid, mind been some reports of even earlier cases going back to the middle of September, this was reported iirc in the China Post.

But to add balance just because there is no known link between the market and the first cases doesn't main there isnt one, no direct link is very vague and its just as likely there was a middle "man" between them.

But for people looking into this in China it means the wet market may not have been the source after all, but was a source for an early cluster, which made it look like it was the source, but is more likely to have just been an area that allowed transmissions to speed up, being a crowded place.

Confusing yes, but this is the problem, there's no known case zero, so we are back to best guesses.

Now to keeping to facts we do know, there was a lab, it was working on coronavirus, Bats have been found to carry a coronavirus and the lab was using samples from bats for the best part of a decade.

The virus is know to have crossed over from animal to human rather than being modified to effect humans, the earliest cases IIRC had a wild strain close to what bats and the lab carried. I think I read there was some samples taken to confirm this.


Now to the "best" guesses.

We dont have proof in the public mainstream, but it seems its one of 4 options

the wet market caused the jump ( bat to animal, then to said animal to human, via wet market )
Bat/Animal to human via direct contact
lab leak accident
released on purpose ( man made covid )

ohh but then to throw a complete spanner in the works, how do you explain:-

A previously unknown coronavirus was isolated from the sputum of a 60-year-old man who presented with acute pneumonia and subsequent renal failure with a fatal outcome in Saudi Arabia. The virus (called HCoV-EMC) replicated readily in cell culture, producing cytopathic effects of rounding, detachment, and syncytium formation. The virus represents a novel betacoronavirus species. The closest known relatives are bat coronaviruses HKU4 and HKU5.

this was in Nov 2012

Isolation of a Novel Coronavirus from a Man with Pneumonia in Saudi Arabia​


Could that have been an early jump by the virus?

So if its jumped before surely its not a stretch that it jumped again or was this strain in bats, waiting to find a new host?


So let me ask you this, what's the golbal conspiracy in all this, just boil it down in basic terms.

If its a lab leak, its not really a conspiracy is it, its just a cover up, like what's happened in the past with nuclear incidents, wont be the first or last time a fubar has been covered up.
you also didnt answer my question on if your anti vaxx or not, or if it was just a covid vaccine you dont trust?

lastly


My personal view, IMO it either jumped as we have seen with many viruses in history or it escaped from the lab, which again we have seen happen before. I cant see any reason why it would have been released on purpose, unlike other times in history when disease was released. I also dont think it was the wet market as such, much more likely someone in the bat caves caught it and passed it on than that, maybe even someone collecting bats for the labs, which could be why it seems to have been a leak.

Simple fact is we just dont know.
 
Ive never said it was released on purpose. My opinion is that its a fk up. Someones dropped a test tube or whatever and thought fk it, I’ll not tell anyone. Then when their boss found out he did the same, and so on.

The Chinese government were probably down the sausage chain some way before they found out and then it was too late to do anything other than CYA. We would do the same no doubt.

There is never any need to reach for the ‘toolbox’ and bring out the ‘conspiracy theory’. Its just people and human behaviour.

Simple fact. We just dont know a lot of things about a lot of things but thats no reason to give different explanations equal weighting.

The circumstantial evidence for WetMeatMarket v LabLeak is strongly on he lab leak side of the fence.

PS and your right, we just dont know, and isnt that a massive alarm bell to start with. Where is the serious investogative journalism, government enquiries etc etc etc. Its been buried which tells you something there.
 
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Mick666 said:
Ive never said it was released on purpose. My opinion is that its a fk up. Someones dropped a test tube or whatever and thought fk it, I’ll not tell anyone. Then when their boss found out he did the same, and so on.

The Chinese government were probably down the sausage chain some way before they found out and then it was too late to do anything other than CYA. We would do the same no doubt.

There is never any need to reach for the ‘toolbox’ and bring out the ‘conspiracy theory’. Its just people and human behaviour.

Simple fact. We just dont know a lot of things about a lot of things but thats no reason to give different explanations equal weighting.

The circumstantial evidence for WetMeatMarket v LabLeak is strongly on he lab leak side of the fence.

PS and your right, we just dont know, and isnt that a massive alarm bell to start with. Where is the serious investogative journalism, government enquiries etc etc etc. Its been buried which tells you something there.
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All it tells me is China has a tight grip on things when it wants to, just like USSR used to have and pretty much every country in the world when they need to keep a secret.

3rd time of asking, are you an anti vaccine or not, just wondering your stance on this, its very strange you missed answering the question twice before.
 
chrismisterx said:
All it tells me is China has a tight grip on things when it wants to, just like USSR used to have and pretty much every country in the world when they need to keep a secret.

3rd time of asking, are you an anti vaccine or not, just wondering your stance on this, its very strange you missed answering the question twice before.
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I’m against forcing people to have it and I’m against the nasty kind of coercive situation it created. Like ive said, things were getting very tasty back at Christmas 2021 for the unvaxed. Not good.

I agree re China keeping a lid on it and why they woukd do it. The bigger problem is who was funding the research and that goes back to Fauci et al. You could even say Covid isnt the issue at all (it obviously is hard to ignore). The bigger issue is the way we are being manipulated.

Why do you guys always go for the conspiracy angle. There are no conspiracies. Beyond two or three conspirators you end up with an open secret. People cant keep their mouths shut. There is no need to reach for the conspiracy theory tools. Most of the tome these people are telling you what they are uo to and even put it on posters or on their websites. Conspiracies arent needed when 95% of the population are complacent.

I take it you have read Brave New World. We might as well be there.
 
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Still no outright winner I see...here's my pennyworth, I think it came from a Kinder egg.

ps. If you all stop writing stuff that is basically tomorrows chip paper, you'll have loads of time for doing good stuff.
 
Gelan said:
Still no outright winner I see...here's my pennyworth, I think it came from a Kinder egg.

ps. If you all stop writing stuff that is basically tomorrows chip paper, you'll have loads of time for doing good stuff.
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What was the name of your Eurovision song that got through to the song for Europe final
 
Mick666 said:
I’m against forcing people to have it and I’m against the nasty kind of coercive situation it created. Like ive said, things were getting very tasty back at Christmas 2021 for the unvaxed. Not good.

I agree re China keeping a lid on it and why they woukd do it. The bigger problem is who was funding the research and that goes back to Fauci et al. You could even say Covid isnt the issue at all (it obviously is hard to ignore). The bigger issue is the way we are being manipulated.

Why do you guys always go for the conspiracy angle. There are no conspiracies. Beyond two or three conspirators you end up with an open secret. People cant keep their mouths shut. There is no need to reach for the conspiracy theory tools. Most of the tome these people are telling you what they are uo to and even put it on posters or on their websites. Conspiracies arent needed when 95% of the population are complacent.

I take it you have read Brave New World. We might as well be there.
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Take a look at Japan at the end of the second world war and what the west decided we should and shouldnt know.

The Tokyo trials were a joke compared to Nuremburg, all because the Allies wanted the research that Japan got from some nasty nasty human experiments, it was an open secret to those that knew, but the rest of us normal people were kept in the dark, we have all heard about Josef Rudolf Mengele and the people he killed through experiments, but I bet you haven't heard of the Japanese doctors and scientist that did the same, in fact did much much worse and killed around 20 times more than Mengele did ( in fact its hard to know the numbers, as they reused them. )

The US wanted the research and the allies signed off on the cover up, Japan had made a bio bomb that was tested on China, the sad fact of it all was the research was poor and by the time the west got it, we were ahead in the game anyway, but these people got away with it.

If you want to know more google Unit 731.

So with that in mind, when I discuss this kind of thing I use history to get a sense of why something would be covered up and who is to gain from it, I cant see who gained from covid, from the outbreak, its doesn't make sense to have been released.

So that leaves - accident or wild transmission its really 50/50 its could be either but as I said in my last post, not that easy to decide, could be a mix of both, someone collecting samples getting ill from collect bats and not from a leak, but who knows.

Now there's very good reasons for a cover up, panic, blame, hiding how bad it was at the start, loads of reasons why it was downplayed, remember in the past I think 2009 the west thought that was going to be horrendous but it didn't really hit the west hard, more Asia, So maybe it was downplayed for business reasons, to keep trade flowing and the powers that be miss judged it, just like the USSR and Chernobyl, downplayed as no one understood how bad it was at the start.

Now afterwards, how governments reacted, lockdowns vaccines etc, people argued that was over the top, that it made no difference, but what would those people have said if we did nothing and we had millions dead instead?

Its a debate not worth having imo, we choose a set of actions and we will never know how much better or worse things would have been if we locked down sooner and harder or if we didn't do anything, its all hearsay, as we cant run the outbreak again.

wasted money is a different kettle of fish and we see how the government has miss handled that part of it, history wont look kind on the government for that.

So can you explain what you mean by you guys always go for the conspiracy angle?

All I am doing is debating with the facts that I know, I maybe have the odd fact wrong as i am no expert and am debating on what I understand about it.

With regards saying things like "follow the money" or see who has gained, you must admit that does implies some kind of underhand goings on in the shadows.

There's very good reasons for having these research labs by the way.
 
Now what country's regime couldn't give a f**k about their own citizens? There's a few but I've narrowed idown on agenda's and decided on Russia. What could be better than planting a virus in a wet market, what with China having previous. Hmmm, a distabalized world, economically fucked...come on lads, Ukraine and more is there for the taking.

Just a theory like.
 
Gelan said:
Now what country's regime couldn't give a f**k about their own citizens? There's a few but I've narrowed idown on agenda's and decided on Russia. What could be better than planting a virus in a wet market, what with China having previous. Hmmm, a distabalized world, economically fucked...come on lads, Ukraine and more is there for the taking.

Just a theory like.
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Much more believable than it being Bill Gates and the great reset.

Small point though, China is Russians main ally, surely better to release it in "NATO" and blame one of our labs....
 
chrismisterx said:
Much more believable than it being Bill Gates and the great reset.

Small point though, China is Russians main ally, surely better to release it in "NATO" and blame one of our labs....
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I did consider that, then I decided they wouldn't figure much when Europe was all satalite states and there were total trade sanctions...China would struggle food wise early doors.

Nb: Tiny fragments of truth from many theories often end up being scientific standards.
 
Gelan said:
Now what country's regime couldn't give a f**k about their own citizens? There's a few but I've narrowed idown on agenda's and decided on Russia. What could be better than planting a virus in a wet market, what with China having previous. Hmmm, a distabalized world, economically fucked...come on lads, Ukraine and more is there for the taking.

Just a theory like.
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Lol. We are into conspiracy theory territory now. You do realise Ukraine is a US manufactured war, not a Russian one.

Anyway, separate topic. But to follow up the Lab Leak. Even if you dont agree you have to ask yourself why none of this is being covered in the MSM like BBC. Again, major topics that woukd have had Panorama and Dispatches all over them like a rash. Total silence. This isn’t ‘fringe’ stuff. These are hearings and investigations at Congress/Senate level in the US.



And remember, the counter argument that was pedalled that ‘most scientists’ debunked the Lab Leak theory is BS. There are vanishingly few scientisits on the planet expert enough in this field to decide what is GainOfFunction research and most of them are involved in it and to some extent culpabke. At best they are not going to blow the whistke on their own activites and face at best getting their wings clipped with heavy legislation. They all have careers and all have employers and or are looking for research grants if in academia.

Dont trust the poachers to police the woods.
 
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