Teachers and workloads

pillars of hercules said:
I'll be honest and say I haven't given it a massive amount of thought but teachers have to do 1265 hours of directed time per year which works out roughly 24 hours per week.

Surely the hours they actually work can be calculated and logged to show the time they spend doing out of 'directed' hours work.

The way teacher's go on about the hours suggests a newly qualified teacher on £23,000 pa is getting less than minimum wage?


I can well imagine. I've got family and mates that have left teaching to do less stressful, easier and better paid work. One has become a hgv driver because it's better money :confused:
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If only it was just the newly qualified who end up working for less than mimimum wage
 


While I hate the idea of locking kids into a dead end future at that age I think there's an argument to be made that grammar and comprehensive schools should return along with the 11+.

If the 11+ is targeted at the right level then it doesn't just identify the 'brighter kids' but also (in fact moreso) those that work diligently and - critically - whose parents are engaged in the education process rather than using the school as daycare. This means good teachers can be moved to schools where they dont have to deal with classroom disruption, dont have to deal with appalling parents threatening violence, dont need to take time to help kids who borderline should be in a sens class and dont have to move at the pace of the slowest child.

It means the other kids can learn technical and vocational skills to prepare them for work without having to copy a report on Macbeth from the internet and change some words or whatever.

Its awful. It means almost deciding and fixing a kids future and prospects at 11 based primarily on their parents and background. But the educational system right now is already failing so many kids and teachers, and isnt also providing a better option to some.
 
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The Muffin Man said:
Gone in the last 12 months after 15 years, didnt even have owt to go to, thankfully have been able to take some time out courtesy of some decent financial decisions over the years......Forgotten what it was like to feel human, mental health symptoms virtually all gone, family life is awesome rather than a chore that gets in the way of work and I now sleep at night........

Not a great financial decision but I would rather walk over broken glass lodged in lego bricks than ever put myself in a classroom again. Love working with the kids, love being in the classroom and loved the school I worked in......Unfortunately the system is utterly broken and while all govts waffle on about dealing with the workload in reality each thing they do to "reduce" it ends up creating more work. People take the piss out of marking but they really dont understand the insanity of marking in the 21st century. The days of ticking a page are over, each page now has to be annotated, often in different coloured pens with kids having to respond to your comments in yet another coloured pen.....Spelling mistakes and grammar errors must be highlighted and man can some kids make a LOT of errors on one page. Multiply that by hundreds of books a week then add hundreds more assessments on top and you suddenly have a mountain living on your kitchen table.

What they will do to solve the recruitment and retention crisis I do not know, it really is getting desperate now with class sizes increasing massively and teachers utterly burnt out. As a parent I hate that I know that the people teaching my kids are likely to be teetering on the edge and therefore not able to deliver the education the kids deserve. Those who stay are under ever increasing pressure as so many are leaving and are not replaced either because the schools are skint or because they cant get the teachers they need. Teachers who were just coping are having their work loads increased by rising class sizes which adds hours and hours of extra marking each week and eventually they too will break.

Cut teachers some slack folks, like many things in life its only when they are gone that you will understand what you have had. As for me I spent years in the private sector before giving it all up to follow my "calling" to teach....Am over the moon that I am going to find a 9-5 job where I can go home and not think about work till I go in the next morning like I used to do. No more long holidays, no more golden pension, no more "9 til 3" days and Im over the bloody moon.
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Why did you lot stand for it?
 
I've got mates that work in kitchens and know folk that regularly do 50hr wk shifts and it's my mate that's a teacher with supposedly the cushy number that looks the most physically/mentally drained.
 
MattyM 09/109 said:
While I hate the idea of locking kids into a dead end future at that age I think there's an argument to be made that grammar and comprehensive schools should return along with the 11+.

If the 11+ is targeted at the right level then it doesn't just identify the 'brighter kids' but also (in fact moreso) those that work diligently and - critically - whose parents are engaged in the education process rather than using the school as daycare. This means good teachers can be moved to schools where they dont have to deal with classroom disruption, dont have to deal with appalling parents threatening violence, dont need to take time to help kids who borderline should be in a sens class and dont have to move at the pace of the slowest child.

It means the other kids can learn technical and vocational skills to prepare them for work without having to copy a report on Macbeth from the internet and change some words or whatever.

Its awful. It means almost deciding and fixing a kids future and prospects at 11 based primarily on their parents and background. But the educational system right now is already failing so many kids and teachers, and isnt also providing a better option to some.
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My skills were always more academic than practical and many kids were 'written off' into vocational pathways. Practical skills nowadays can offer good high earning jobs often on a self employment basis.
 
I have 25 hours a week contact time with my students. This leaves, supposedly, 11 hours per week for everything else such as lesson planning, marking, CPD, meetings etc. No chance. I'm usually busy working most evenings and one a few hours at the weekend and I'm experienced, it must be really difficult for new teachers entering the game. No way I could work in a school given what mates who do so say about it mind.
 
MattyM 09/109 said:
Absolutely, and a modern vocational educational path could incorporate things like certifications from third parties - MSCE, CCNA, etc
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The big concern for me though is the timing of the stage and whether it is a locked one. I think '11' is too early and I would like to see opportunities for the pupils to switch pathways dependent upon progress/motivation/aptitude.
 
The Muffin Man said:
Gone in the last 12 months after 15 years, didnt even have owt to go to, thankfully have been able to take some time out courtesy of some decent financial decisions over the years......Forgotten what it was like to feel human, mental health symptoms virtually all gone, family life is awesome rather than a chore that gets in the way of work and I now sleep at night........

Not a great financial decision but I would rather walk over broken glass lodged in lego bricks than ever put myself in a classroom again. Love working with the kids, love being in the classroom and loved the school I worked in......Unfortunately the system is utterly broken and while all govts waffle on about dealing with the workload in reality each thing they do to "reduce" it ends up creating more work. People take the piss out of marking but they really dont understand the insanity of marking in the 21st century. The days of ticking a page are over, each page now has to be annotated, often in different coloured pens with kids having to respond to your comments in yet another coloured pen.....Spelling mistakes and grammar errors must be highlighted and man can some kids make a LOT of errors on one page. Multiply that by hundreds of books a week then add hundreds more assessments on top and you suddenly have a mountain living on your kitchen table.

What they will do to solve the recruitment and retention crisis I do not know, it really is getting desperate now with class sizes increasing massively and teachers utterly burnt out. As a parent I hate that I know that the people teaching my kids are likely to be teetering on the edge and therefore not able to deliver the education the kids deserve. Those who stay are under ever increasing pressure as so many are leaving and are not replaced either because the schools are skint or because they cant get the teachers they need. Teachers who were just coping are having their work loads increased by rising class sizes which adds hours and hours of extra marking each week and eventually they too will break.

Cut teachers some slack folks, like many things in life its only when they are gone that you will understand what you have had. As for me I spent years in the private sector before giving it all up to follow my "calling" to teach....Am over the moon that I am going to find a 9-5 job where I can go home and not think about work till I go in the next morning like I used to do. No more long holidays, no more golden pension, no more "9 til 3" days and Im over the bloody moon.
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Fantastic post mate. I took twelve months to repair my mental health. There is much to be said for genuinely looking forward to going to work in the morning. The opposite was shaking uncontrollably, but that is behind me now. It is a nice feeling taking my sat nav off the dashboard, entering my home feeling relaxed and having enjoyed a day's graft.

I find it concerning that schools cannot fill key positions such as head of core subjects. However, I did my time and it is someone else's battle now.
 
woollyback said:
I have 25 hours a week contact time with my students. This leaves, supposedly, 11 hours per week for everything else such as lesson planning, marking, CPD, meetings etc. No chance. I'm usually busy working most evenings and one a few hours at the weekend and I'm experienced, it must be really difficult for new teachers entering the game. No way I could work in a school given what mates who do so say about it mind.
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There are often clear differences in motivation between primary, secondary and tertiary institutions. Many lecturers in FE (especially with Functional Skills or whatever the latest term is) though also have to try to teach students who don't want to be there.
 
Harry Angstrom said:
Why did you lot stand for it?
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We didnt, but look what happens when we went on strike to try and highlight to people what was going on..........Govt backed by their media pals starts spouting off about us being greedy (even though the disputes werent about money), papers savage us for disrupting kids education even though we were trying to stop the current crisis from happening, parents were happy to buy into the bull shit and lies as they didnt like having to find alternative child care for a day and we then arrive where we are today.

Parents being asked for donations to fund the school budget as there is literally no money, their kids in buildings that are fallen apart, a curriculum that has been reduced to a core of subjects with things like the arts and practical subjects being, class sizes that we had got down to an average of around 20 now increasing to 30 meaning less individual time given to each child and teachers having to skimp lesson planning to be able to cope with the increased marking load.

The action we took started around 5 years ago under the bellend that is Michael Gove who damaged the education system more than any other minister for education in history. It has been ongoing since then with teachers officially working to rule (but in reality not being able to as they were getting banged on competency and sacked), we warned parents what was happening and nobody listened and now everybody seems shocked that what we told people was happening has now happened.

Many teachers have tolerated this as it is something they have always wanted to do and there is a tremendous amount of guilt attached to walking away from kids that you adore working with.....Problem is we are now in a situation where its a choice between health and leaving and people are leaving in massive numbers........The age and experience of teaching staff is falling through the floor, classrooms are filled with newly qualified teachers (cheap) without the old experienced hands to guide them anymore. Those young teachers spend a few years gaining experience then they bail out as the pressure takes its toll.

Its a mess but until league tables are abolished (they provide literally no value to anybody other than Govt), until the marking load is reduced massively which will never ever happen then this mess will continue.
 
Kent_Mackem said:
(Some) People see the holidays and don’t understand the rest. They’re convinced it is a ridiculously great deal, yet they don’t apply. Funny that. I wonder if that is the real reason behind the bitterness....? That they know they can’t do it.
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I know I couldn’t do it which is why I only make snarky comments like my earlier one as a joke.
 
The Sheepfolds End said:
That wasn’t sarcasm. I genuinely think it would be boring, but since you asked...

- reduce the amount of data inputs to monitor ‘progress’
- reduce the amount of parents evenings / report writing
- reduce the amount of assessment required
- reduce class sizes (this would require significant government investment that isn’t coming)
- completely modernise classroom practice to incorporate technology (again, investment...)
- increase the amount of teaching assistants to help with resource printing / creation, to assist kids with SEND / challenging behaviours
- centralise detentions and behaviour management policies

Could probably think of a few more given time.
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Thank you it wasn't boring. If I wasn't interested I wouldn't be asking.
I believe schools need massive investment and it appears what you really need is 'logistical' support, allowing teachers to concentrate on teaching kids and allowing others to facilitate this. Like you said more enhanced teaching assistance including marking work etc.

I do believe we need a massive overhaul of the education system including kids starting a year older, less holidays and finishing when they're older. Yes it would require a massive investment, but children deserve the best education they can get to allow them to compete with kids from wealthy families. This can never happen if everything is result driven by pissed off teachers.
 
The Muffin Man said:
We didnt, but look what happens when we went on strike to try and highlight to people what was going on..........Govt backed by their media pals starts spouting off about us being greedy (even though the disputes werent about money), papers savage us for disrupting kids education even though we were trying to stop the current crisis from happening, parents were happy to buy into the bull shit and lies as they didnt like having to find alternative child care for a day and we then arrive where we are today.

Parents being asked for donations to fund the school budget as there is literally no money, their kids in buildings that are fallen apart, a curriculum that has been reduced to a core of subjects with things like the arts and practical subjects being, class sizes that we had got down to an average of around 20 now increasing to 30 meaning less individual time given to each child and teachers having to skimp lesson planning to be able to cope with the increased marking load.

The action we took started around 5 years ago under the bellend that is Michael Gove who damaged the education system more than any other minister for education in history. It has been ongoing since then with teachers officially working to rule (but in reality not being able to as they were getting banged on competency and sacked), we warned parents what was happening and nobody listened and now everybody seems shocked that what we told people was happening has now happened.

Many teachers have tolerated this as it is something they have always wanted to do and there is a tremendous amount of guilt attached to walking away from kids that you adore working with.....Problem is we are now in a situation where its a choice between health and leaving and people are leaving in massive numbers........The age and experience of teaching staff is falling through the floor, classrooms are filled with newly qualified teachers (cheap) without the old experienced hands to guide them anymore. Those young teachers spend a few years gaining experience then they bail out as the pressure takes its toll.

Its a mess but until league tables are abolished (they provide literally no value to anybody other than Govt), until the marking load is reduced massively which will never ever happen then this mess will continue.
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Thanks for the long reply.

I see it as a case of institutional bullying by the Department of Education. I have no idea why en masse you lot just decided to work ridiculous amounts of time to fit in with new rules.

It's like some huge psychological experiment that had thousands of professional people sacrificing their lives for I don't know what?

I assume if you worked your contracted hours you would have been way behind and sacked. To me that is constructive dismissal.
 
The Muffin Man said:
We didnt, but look what happens when we went on strike to try and highlight to people what was going on..........Govt backed by their media pals starts spouting off about us being greedy (even though the disputes werent about money), papers savage us for disrupting kids education even though we were trying to stop the current crisis from happening, parents were happy to buy into the bull shit and lies as they didnt like having to find alternative child care for a day and we then arrive where we are today.

Parents being asked for donations to fund the school budget as there is literally no money, their kids in buildings that are fallen apart, a curriculum that has been reduced to a core of subjects with things like the arts and practical subjects being, class sizes that we had got down to an average of around 20 now increasing to 30 meaning less individual time given to each child and teachers having to skimp lesson planning to be able to cope with the increased marking load.

The action we took started around 5 years ago under the bellend that is Michael Gove who damaged the education system more than any other minister for education in history. It has been ongoing since then with teachers officially working to rule (but in reality not being able to as they were getting banged on competency and sacked), we warned parents what was happening and nobody listened and now everybody seems shocked that what we told people was happening has now happened.

Many teachers have tolerated this as it is something they have always wanted to do and there is a tremendous amount of guilt attached to walking away from kids that you adore working with.....Problem is we are now in a situation where its a choice between health and leaving and people are leaving in massive numbers........The age and experience of teaching staff is falling through the floor, classrooms are filled with newly qualified teachers (cheap) without the old experienced hands to guide them anymore. Those young teachers spend a few years gaining experience then they bail out as the pressure takes its toll.

Its a mess but until league tables are abolished (they provide literally no value to anybody other than Govt), until the marking load is reduced massively which will never ever happen then this mess will continue.
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Like nurses, teachers are being penalised for being in an industry based on caring. It's quite sad really.
 
Tomma said:
A diminishing sense of parental responsibility has a lot to answer for in making the teaching profession increasingly challenging.
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I would say the opposite is the case. Parents are much more engaged in their child's education than in the past. I would say parents expectations of their child's expected achievements is an added pressure.
 
The Muffin Man said:
Its a mess but until league tables are abolished (they provide literally no value to anybody other than Govt)
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I think the league tables do have value. Although they should not just be perceived as judgement on the quality of the teaching and management. The old term 'not being able to polish a turd' comes to mind although that is not meant as a complete dig at the pupils - the homes that they come from have to take some responsibility.
 
The Muffin Man said:
.

The action we took started around 5 years ago under the bellend that is Michael Gove who damaged the education system more than any other minister for education in history. It has been ongoing since then with teachers officially working to rule (but in reality not being able to as they were getting banged on competency and sacked), we warned parents what was happening and nobody listened and now everybody seems shocked that what we told people was happening has now happened.
.
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Could not agree more. He brought about much damage to education.
 
Harry Angstrom said:
Thanks for the long reply.

I see it as a case of institutional bullying by the Department of Education. I have no idea why en masse you lot just decided to work ridiculous amounts of time to fit in with new rules.

It's like some huge psychological experiment that had thousands of professional people sacrificing their lives for I don't know what?

I assume if you worked your contracted hours you would have been way behind and sacked. To me that is constructive dismissal.
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What I can't understand is why the teaching unions don't take legal action against schools for paying newly qualified teachers what would amount to hourly wages that are below statutory minimum levels.
 

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