NUFC - November/December

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The Fish said:
Objectively, Bruce is an uninspiring appointment for a Premier League side these days, and going from a much-loved manager to an uninspiring one is always going to result in opposition. If Bruce turns out more performances like Tottenham, Man Utd, Bournemouth and West Ham, and fewer performances like Norwich, Leicester, Brighton and Watford, he'll be given the credit that deserves.

If he consistently outperforms Benitez then he of course deserves credit. But honestly, the revisionism on here is baffling. Bruce's been called out for his limitations on here, but purely because the Newcastle fans lauded his predeccesor, Bruce's ability is being exagerrated.
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Agree a lot of people on here feel like that. Look through my posting history and youl see I’ve always said he should never have been sacked here. He led us to our highest finish in the premier league and we needed stability, since then we’ve went through managers like there’s no tomorrow and it’s been part of the problem.

People are adamant we would have went down under him when in reality we were outside of the bottom 3 and no one will ever really know where we would have finished.

My opinion is we would have stayed up and he would have rebuilt in the summer after a tumultuous season where we lost some very good players at the start of the season and again in January.

Not a popular opinion on here but it’s one that can never be proved wrong.

Never got the hype with rafa, good record at previous clubs but very average at Newcastle. Won the league with the team that was expected to win the league, same as hughton but made harder work it it.

2 decent finishes in the league but 10th was his best finish, same as Bruce with us.

If Bruce finishes 9 he’s outdone rafa in 1 season
 
Binxy said:
Winning the Championship is nowt special we've had countless managers do that.
Finishing 10th and 13th is pretty average, decent, ok (call it what you want).
What he wasn't was world class or a miracle worker like you lot and the mag media make him out to be.
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Stokoe, Reid, McCarthy and Keane from the 70s to the 00s. The Championship is a pretty decent league tbh, winning it is harder than winning the first division of several UEFA nations.

Benitez should have won the Championship with the squad he had but you can only beat what's in front of you. Achieving 10th the first season up was outstanding (doing a wolves or Sheffield UTD is not normal). Mugs don't win La Liga twice with a team that's not Real or Barca. Mugs don't win the Champions League. He's blatantly a good manager.
Binxy said:
Winning the Championship is nowt special we've had countless managers do that.
Finishing 10th and 13th is pretty average, decent, ok (call it what you want).
What he wasn't was world class or a miracle worker like you lot and the mag media make him out to be.
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Stokoe, Reid, McCarthy and Keane from the 70s to the 00s. The Championship is a pretty decent league tbh, winning it is harder than winning the first division of several UEFA nations.

Benitez should have won the Championship with the squad he had but you can only beat what's in front of you. Achieving 10th the first season up was outstanding (doing a wolves or Sheffield UTD is not normal). Mugs don't win La Liga twice with a team that's not Real or Barca. Mugs don't win the Champions League. He's blatantly a good manager.
 
Zinedine Kilbane said:
Agree a lot of people on here feel like that. Look through my posting history and youl see I’ve always said he should never have been sacked here. He led us to our highest finish in the premier league and we needed stability, since then we’ve went through managers like there’s no tomorrow and it’s been part of the problem.

People are adamant we would have went down under him when in reality we were outside of the bottom 3 and no one will ever really know where we would have finished.

My opinion is we would have stayed up and he would have rebuilt in the summer after a tumultuous season where we lost some very good players at the start of the season and again in January.

Not a popular opinion on here but it’s one that can never be proved wrong.

Never got the hype with rafa, good record at previous clubs but very average at Newcastle. Won the league with the team that was expected to win the league, same as hughton but made harder work it it.

2 decent finishes in the league but 10th was his best finish, same as Bruce with us.

If Bruce finishes 9 he’s outdone rafa in 1 season
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Winning the league just because it's expected of you isn't straightforward. I hardly need to remind Sunderland fans of that. Hughton did brilliantly and deserves so much credit for winning a very competitive league in his first permanent managerial role. Benitez also won it and I'd say that he had a worse squad than Hughton.

If you genuinely think that Bruce somehow finishing 9th this season makes him a better shout for Newcastle Manager than Benitez, I don't know if there's anything that can be done for you. It's patently obvious which is the better manager, which is the manager best equipped to take Newcastle United further.
 
I wonder if Bruce finishing tenth with Sunderland unequivocally makes him a better manager than the lauded-on-here Sam Allardyce as he only scraped surviving relegation.
 
Sima said:
I wonder if Bruce finishing tenth with Sunderland unequivocally makes him a better manager than the lauded-on-here Sam Allardyce as he only scraped surviving relegation.
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Comparing 1 season after to a 1 approx 5 seasons after? Makes sense ... let’s just ignore the hugely changed teams etc
 
Sima said:
Weird, you’ve never mentioned that at any point it’s been discussed previously but suddenly they can’t be compared...
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Never said they can be compared, what a strange comment. Said all along compare rafas 10th and 13th to how Bruce does this season.
 
Never said you did, merely that you've never taken umbrage with managers from wider periods being compared before (Pardew and Benitez) but now that the flawed logic is being used to defend it can no longer be used.
 
To be honest,when the mugs appointed Bruce i never heard any of my mug mates say he will not be accepted because he managed us.When he was appointed our manager the majority of us,well not me exactly,were overjoyed because we thought ( wrongly ) that he had chosen us over the mugs.
 
Sima said:
Never said you did, merely that you've never taken umbrage with managers from wider periods being compared before (Pardew and Benitez) but now that the flawed logic is being used to defend it can no longer be used.
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I'll repeat this for you as you seem a bit slow on the uptake. I have only ever said to compare Rafa to Bruce as it is essentially a like for like team with a few changes in personnel.

Not sure why you keep bringing up other managers as my original point was that Rafa did nothing special at Newcastle, he was decent but nothing more. That's when I said if he was so great then lets compare how Bruce does with essentially the same team.

Once the season is over we can compare final league positions and points, as things stand Bruce is on course to achieve a better points tally than last season and equal the final league position.

If Bruce finishes on more points and in a higher position he deserves respect for his achievements, it's embarrassing to see Newcastle fans fawning over Rafa like he is a god. All he did was unite a fan base, why not get united behind Bruce? You can't blame it on Ashley as he has spent money this summer, he's backed his manager and broken the transfer record in the last 2 windows.

Time for the fans to move on from Rafa and get behind Bruce
 
You can't seem to wrap your head around that I'm not talking about just your opinion.

If Bruce achieves better than Rafa Benitez did last season points-wise (which was more than his first season) of course he'll get credit. At the same time though, it's a widely-held viewpoint that Bruce goes through a 'struggle period' in the winter months so it's probably wise to keep your powder dry as he's not that far ahead enough to be able to accommodate that. Especially considering we finished strongly last season.

Mind you, you yourself have said Bruce has had money to spend this summer so it's not entirely comparable considering Benitez didn't have the luxury of spending over £40m on an, albeit poor, centre-forward.
 
Sima said:
You can't seem to wrap your head around that I'm not talking about just your opinion.

If Bruce achieves better than Rafa Benitez did last season points-wise (which was more than his first season) of course he'll get credit. At the same time though, it's a widely-held viewpoint that Bruce goes through a 'struggle period' in the winter months so it's probably wise to keep your powder dry as he's not that far ahead enough to be able to accommodate that. Especially considering we finished strongly last season.

Mind you, you yourself have said Bruce has had money to spend this summer so it's not entirely comparable considering Benitez didn't have the luxury of spending over £40m on an, albeit poor, centre-forward.
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I'm not interested in comparing any managers records unless they are in successive seasons and with largely the same squad. Comparing managers records when they have totally different squads is pointless and a waste of time. So i'll say it again, I will compare Rafas last season at Newcastle to Bruce's first this season. That's a fair comparison.

The only improvement imo that Bruce has on last season squad is the saint who looks like a brilliant player, he's fast, tricky and creates chances but his final ball and shooting has been poor, that will generally come with experience.

I'd say it is comparable as he might not have spent that much on a striker but he did have Rondon on loan who wouldn't be far off that price it's just age that goes against him being the wrong side of 30.

You could argue Rafa had a better team as he had the finished article at CF compared to a young kid who has been asked to take on a new role at NUFC, he previously played wide of a front 3 so he's on a learning curve. I think he may still come good, it's early days still and you would be mad to write him off already. He also had Perez who is playing for the 2nd top team in the league.

You could argue Bruce is working wonders or should I say "miracles" with a poorer team that last season
 
Zinedine Kilbane said:
I'm not interested in comparing any managers records unless they are in successive seasons and with largely the same squad. Comparing managers records when they have totally different squads is pointless and a waste of time. So i'll say it again, I will compare Rafas last season at Newcastle to Bruce's first this season. That's a fair comparison.

The only improvement imo that Bruce has on last season squad is the saint who looks like a brilliant player, he's fast, tricky and creates chances but his final ball and shooting has been poor, that will generally come with experience.

I'd say it is comparable as he might not have spent that much on a striker but he did have Rondon on loan who wouldn't be far off that price it's just age that goes against him being the wrong side of 30.

You could argue Rafa had a better team as he had the finished article at CF compared to a young kid who has been asked to take on a new role at NUFC, he previously played wide of a front 3 so he's on a learning curve. I think he may still come good, it's early days still and you would be mad to write him off already. He also had Perez who is playing for the 2nd top team in the league.

You could argue Bruce is working wonders or should I say "miracles" with a poorer team that last season
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Isn't building a squad part of a Manager's remit? As such Bruce shouldn't get credit until it's his team? And shouldn't building a squad over the course of a manager's tenure count in their favour, rather than be dismissed out of hand?

You say comparing manager's records when they have totally different squads is pointless, yet Benitez was consistently copared to Pardew. Why? Well, it's because Newcastle fans didn't take to Pardew so some Sunderland fans took it upon themselves to defend his honour. Even in the face of mountains of evidence that he's a f***ing charlatan.
 
The Fish said:
Isn't building a squad part of a Manager's remit? As such Bruce shouldn't get credit until it's his team? And shouldn't building a squad over the course of a manager's tenure count in their favour, rather than be dismissed out of hand?


You say comparing manager's records when they have totally different squads is pointless, yet Benitez was consistently copared to Pardew. Why? Well, it's because Newcastle fans didn't take to Pardew so some Sunderland fans took it upon themselves to defend his honour. Even in the face of mountains of evidence that he's a f***ing charlatan.
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Your first paragraph is an absolutely idiotic statement. But go on I’ll humour/educate you.

Bruce deserves praise for the good performances and criticism for the poor ones. He’s the man responsible for getting the players to perform, not rafa, not Ashley, not anyone else besides his coaching staff but ultimately he is the main man and the buck stops with him.

You talk about building a team but not all managers have the luxury of bringing in new players, even if they do it’s usually not the players they really want, it’s players further down the scouting list.

First and foremost a managers job is to manage/coach the playing staff and implement a playing style based on the players they have available. Some managers don’t even have any say on who they sign as it’s left to directors of football or people in similar roles. Think of Keegan and wise when he was at Newcastle.

In any case how can Bruce build a team in a couple of weeks when rafa left the club in the shit in pre season for a “long term project” that almost certainly won’t be long term. He’s coming back to the premier league sooner rather than later.

You cannot compare Bruce and pardew accurately as they were totally different teams. If people want to compare them then let them crack on but I’m not interested in comparing them, like I’ve said before it’s a waste of time.

I will be comparing Bruce after the season is over to rafa last season and if he gets more points it’s proved that rafa was a f***ing charlatan claiming he was working miracles when Steve Bruce can do a better job. That will be hilarious, rafa already panicking talking about finishing 7th in second half of season. Blokes ego is taking a massive battering seeing Bruce come in so late and outdo him already
 
Zinedine Kilbane said:
Your first paragraph is an absolutely idiotic statement. But go on I’ll humour/educate you.

Bruce deserves praise for the good performances and criticism for the poor ones. He’s the man responsible for getting the players to perform, not rafa, not Ashley, not anyone else besides his coaching staff but ultimately he is the main man and the buck stops with him.

You talk about building a team but not all managers have the luxury of bringing in new players, even if they do it’s usually not the players they really want, it’s players further down the scouting list.

First and foremost a managers job is to manage/coach the playing staff and implement a playing style based on the players they have available. Some managers don’t even have any say on who they sign as it’s left to directors of football or people in similar roles. Think of Keegan and wise when he was at Newcastle.

In any case how can Bruce build a team in a couple of weeks when rafa left the club in the shit in pre season for a “long term project” that almost certainly won’t be long term. He’s coming back to the premier league sooner rather than later.

You cannot compare Bruce and pardew accurately as they were totally different teams. If people want to compare them then let them crack on but I’m not interested in comparing them, like I’ve said before it’s a waste of time.

I will be comparing Bruce after the season is over to rafa last season and if he gets more points it’s proved that rafa was a f***ing charlatan claiming he was working miracles when Steve Bruce can do a better job. That will be hilarious, rafa already panicking talking about finishing 7th in second half of season. Blokes ego is taking a massive battering seeing Bruce come in so late and outdo him already
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It's not at all, it just undermines your premise.

He does deserve praise and criticism for performances good and bad.

Wait a second, I've read consistently on here that this player is Rafa's player.

Nobody is asking Bruce to be judged on the team he's built yet, because he hasn't built a team yet. Benitez' departure owes more to Ashley's intransigence than it does Benitez' perceived greed. I know it's the done thing to paint Benitez' departure as proof that he's only in it for the money, but that's objectively false. Were BEnitez chiefly motivated by money he would have taken a job in China, or the Middle East way before he approached Newcastle about the manager's job.
By all accounts it was known to owner and manager way before pre-season that Benitez was leaving. If you want to blame anyone for leaving Newcastle in the shit, it's Mike Ashley. Again.

I am interested to see you're happy to judge two managers in different circumstances as if they're the same circumstances. Bruce inherits a well drilled defensive unit with players more experienced in the top flight and £60m worth of attacking talent added to the squad. Benitez didn't have that.
 
The Fish said:
It's not at all, it just undermines your premise.

He does deserve praise and criticism for performances good and bad.

Wait a second, I've read consistently on here that this player is Rafa's player.

Nobody is asking Bruce to be judged on the team he's built yet, because he hasn't built a team yet. Benitez' departure owes more to Ashley's intransigence than it does Benitez' perceived greed. I know it's the done thing to paint Benitez' departure as proof that he's only in it for the money, but that's objectively false. Were BEnitez chiefly motivated by money he would have taken a job in China, or the Middle East way before he approached Newcastle about the manager's job.
By all accounts it was known to owner and manager way before pre-season that Benitez was leaving. If you want to blame anyone for leaving Newcastle in the shit, it's Mike Ashley. Again.

I am interested to see you're happy to judge two managers in different circumstances as if they're the same circumstances. Bruce inherits a well drilled defensive unit with players more experienced in the top flight and £60m worth of attacking talent added to the squad. Benitez didn't have that.
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You’ve just called joelinton shit but now he’s part of £60m worth of talent?

Make your mind up.

Rondon was better than joelinton, Bruce is doing better win an inferior cf.

Fergie had Man Utd as a well drilled team who had just won the league, did moyes sustain that team? No. Bruce is sustaining Newcastle though, actually he’s improved them by 7 points. Miracle
 
Sima said:
I wonder if Bruce finishing tenth with Sunderland unequivocally makes him a better manager than the lauded-on-here Sam Allardyce as he only scraped surviving relegation.
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What did you expect Allardyce to do in his short time here? Win the f***ing league? He came in with 3 points from 8 games and a squad that wasn't his (and was pretty shit and no clue what they were doing). He bought players in the window which made our team far better and we survived. I do think if he had of stayed he would have outperformed Bruce (who I don't think is a bad manager (just shit training)) and built on the team he was creating. Bruce cannot help himself creating teams and then ripping them apart so he can go on a spending spree again, till it falls apart.
 
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