New Zealand PM's Response to Johnson's Covid Actions

MonkeyLove said:
93% which is nigh on 7% lower then the 99… % which it was effective against the Alpha.

So again the outcome is the same and people who talk about a variant not evading vaccines are talking shite.

The Delta is already evading it and causing more illness and deaths, it’s just a question of magnitude
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It's pointless on here.

The USA had the alpha variant under control, the delta variant is going to cause chaos but the SMB scientist know better.
 


The Cheat said:
I've already tried to tell him it's more effective but he isn't having it. I think he's one of those who "doesn't click links".
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Personally, I don’t think there is enough data to be certain either way but people are putting an awful lot of weight in the Israel study and discounting any local evidence which doesn’t agree with it.
 
DoctorMick said:
Personally, I don’t think there is enough data to be certain either way but people are putting an awful lot of weight in the Israel study and discounting any local evidence which doesn’t agree with it.
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Also if you go to Pfizers website and look up the current study, they are testing "tweaks" and "boosters"

the vaccine wont stand still, it will be improved to combat any changes in the virus imo.
 
The Cheat said:
I've already tried to tell him it's more effective but he isn't having it. I think he's one of those who "doesn't click links".
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You were trying to say the vaccines are more effective against the Delta then Alpha then included a Gov UK link which said the opposite :lol:

I even posted the exact sentence from it to you yesterday
DoctorMick said:
The latest PHE report doesn’t agree with your numbers.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...512/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_27.pdf
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Im still not quite sure what you are arguing. The original studies of vaccine effectiveness against the Alpha were higher. The CDC study of thousands had the Pfizer 100% effective against severe disease and deaths.

Now all studies, not just Israel, and even the one you link have lower figures against preventing disease, hospitalisations and deaths.

You can argue it whichever way you like the simple facts are the vaccines are not as effective with the Delta as with the Alpha (Even the government have said this at daily briefings) and variants already escape the vaccines today so clearly it’s possible it’s just a sliding scale of magnitude

Comparing the COVID-19 Vaccines: How Are They Different?
 
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MonkeyLove said:
Im still not quite sure what you are arguing. The original studies of vaccine effectiveness against the Alpha were higher. The CDC study of thousands had the Pfizer 100% effective against severe disease and deaths.

Now all studies, not just Israel, and even the one you link have lower figures against preventing disease, hospitalisations and deaths.

You can argue it whichever way you like the simple facts are the vaccines are not as effective with the Delta as with the Alpha (Even the government have said this at daily briefings) and variants already escape the vaccines today so clearly it’s possible it’s just a sliding scale of magnitude

Comparing the COVID-19 Vaccines: How Are They Different?
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Taken directly from the report I linked to...

"Similar vaccine effectiveness against hospitalisation was seen with the Alpha and Delta variants"

The report also says...

"After a single dose there was an 14% absolute reduction in vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic disease with Delta compared to Alpha, and a smaller 10% reduction in effectiveness after 2 doses"

So, the vaccines are less effective against symptomatic disease but equally as effective against hospitalisation and deaths. Can you copy the relevant part of the report that says the vaccines are less effective against hospitalisations and deaths from the Delta variant as I must have overlooked it.
 
CatRyan said:
it is insanely irresponsible and I reckon we'll be put on red lists pronto if we continue with this, we will be a petri dish of covid variants that are too dangerous to be exported and we'll be a lone leper colony with no mates

probably won't be able to go to Qatar at this rate
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Good, let’s stop everyone coming in spreading variants about.

Although not those on the really long exemption list.
daventry cat said:
Government respiritory advisor and professor of experimental medicine at UCL on WatO today called the Governments whole approach a massive experiment today
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Everything throughout this has been an experiment.
 
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Hansel said:
I don't think an escape variant is the biggest concern. Like I said it's a risk but not the main one. The biggest risk with this strategy is thousands of young people and potentially kids with long Covid and ongoing chronic health problems. What should they have done? I would have advocated keeping restrictions until everyone was double jabbed including adolescents. Are you doing any under 18s in Canada?. I'm a bit sceptical about this talk of an exit wave and Whitty's explanation that we can't avoid it only move it. It would seem to me that an exit wave would be smaller if more people are vaccinated. I agree the NZ on the vaccine front. Their population is vulnerable. I don't know why they have delays but it's a risk for them.
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Its going to take years to untangle long Covid as initially it will be a mixed bag of physical and psychological stuff. The psychological consequences of ending up in hospital, on CPAP, fighting to breathe, on ITU are massive on top of the physical decline you see.

From my very limited experience of my patient list and Covid I have had 1 death, 30 odd cases with pretty mild disease and full recovery and 2 fit 50+ people with long term symptoms that have taken 12 months or so to ease off

We are doing 12+ and that includes anyone turning 12 in 2021. 80% first dose and 40% fully vaccinated in that target group. I suspect once Pfizer have done the current trial in 5-12 they will be included too so from thos figures we are looking at 90% or so vaccinated I would reckon
 
CatRyan said:
it is insanely irresponsible and I reckon we'll be put on red lists pronto if we continue with this, we will be a petri dish of covid variants that are too dangerous to be exported and we'll be a lone leper colony with no mates

probably won't be able to go to Qatar at this rate
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That's Brexit for you.
 
RichB said:
Its going to take years to untangle long Covid as initially it will be a mixed bag of physical and psychological stuff. The psychological consequences of ending up in hospital, on CPAP, fighting to breathe, on ITU are massive on top of the physical decline you see.

From my very limited experience of my patient list and Covid I have had 1 death, 30 odd cases with pretty mild disease and full recovery and 2 fit 50+ people with long term symptoms that have taken 12 months or so to ease off

We are doing 12+ and that includes anyone turning 12 in 2021. 80% first dose and 40% fully vaccinated in that target group. I suspect once Pfizer have done the current trial in 5-12 they will be included too so from thos figures we are looking at 90% or so vaccinated I would reckon
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I think that currently I'm in the pro vaccinate adolescents camp. I always get a bit worried when our county is doing something different to others especially with the government we have in charge. The official line is that they don't yet believe the benefits for vaccinating kids outweigh the risks but I've a sneaking suspicion it might be due to supply issues given AZ can't be used. It's a difficult one. If someone said is it 100% safe for my kid you'd have to say the risk is very low but there are risks - eg. I believe there are reports of pericarditis in teenagers who've had mRNA vaccs. Sometimes with drugs rare adverse effects don't become apparent until after years of use. Lots of examples such as arrhythmia and sudden cardiac death with domperidone, stroke with antipsychotics, or cardiovascular events with non selective NSAIDs. Having said that I think the risks from Covid probably outweigh those from vaccination. Unfortunately there is no completely safe option.
 
Hansel said:
I think that currently I'm in the pro vaccinate adolescents camp. I always get a bit worried when our county is doing something different to others especially with the government we have in charge. The official line is that they don't yet believe the benefits for vaccinating kids outweigh the risks but I've a sneaking suspicion it might be due to supply issues given AZ can't be used. It's a difficult one. If someone said is it 100% safe for my kid you'd have to say the risk is very low but there are risks - eg. I believe there are reports of pericarditis in teenagers who've had mRNA vaccs. Sometimes with drugs rare adverse effects don't become apparent until after years of use. Lots of examples such as arrhythmia and sudden cardiac death with domperidone, stroke with antipsychotics, or cardiovascular events with non selective NSAIDs. Having said that I think the risks from Covid probably outweigh those from vaccination. Unfortunately there is no completely safe option.
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Its a little different with meds vs vaccines as most of the stuff is pretty soon after the jab.

The drug ones are genrally they appear as the drug gets more widespread use around the world - its weird though as domperidone was very much on the naughty step in the UK whereas its used widely in Canada still. Pericarditis is generally a very mild illness anyway so hopefully the post vaccine stuff can be filed in the unpleasant but ultimately no major harm done group.

My kids/ stepkids are all 19+ so all had it - I agree its difficult choice for parents

My suspicion is we will find that AZ isnt as effective a vaccine as Pfizer. Its going to be telling what happens in the US this next month or so as they have lower vacc rates than the UK but pretty much all mRNA vaccines
 
RichB said:
Its a little different with meds vs vaccines as most of the stuff is pretty soon after the jab.

The drug ones are genrally they appear as the drug gets more widespread use around the world - its weird though as domperidone was very much on the naughty step in the UK whereas its used widely in Canada still. Pericarditis is generally a very mild illness anyway so hopefully the post vaccine stuff can be filed in the unpleasant but ultimately no major harm done group.

My kids/ stepkids are all 19+ so all had it - I agree its difficult choice for parents

My suspicion is we will find that AZ isnt as effective a vaccine as Pfizer. Its going to be telling what happens in the US this next month or so as they have lower vacc rates than the UK but pretty much all mRNA vaccines
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I agree that there are differences between vaccines and drugs so you're right not necessarily the best comparison. The risk of an MI after a single dose of diclofenac must be non existent. Drugs obviously tend to be used on an ongoing basis rather than a stat dose. I guess I'm really thinking of an adverse event occuring at the time of vaccination but which doesn't become apparent until a future date. Say for example there was a vaccine which partially damaged Islet cells. This might increase your risk of developing diabetes several years down the line. Impossible to pick up something like that in a clinical trial or after a year or so of use.
I'd better stop now as I might be putting some people off! Get your vaccine folks, it's the best way to protect yourselves. If I had younger kids I would want them jabbed.
 

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