New Zealand PM's Response to Johnson's Covid Actions

from what understand the pfizer one has to submit further data from the current trail it has under taken, like i said just a layman and understand 100% why people are concerned, new data is gathered all the time and some of the current concerns with pfizer for example I can 100% understand why some are worried.
Yes it does have further data collection. Phase 4 long term surveillance data. However Pfizer have publically available phase III data available on full text. The approvals reference it's existence. I know you keep saying in layman's terms but do far you haven't understood it to put it in laymans terms. It's this simple. The currently approved vaccines in the USA, UK and EU all have extensive phase III results published which allowed them to receive emergency approval. There is nothing ambiguous

Drug manufacturers collect data endlessly.
 
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Yes it does have further data collection. Phase 4 long term surveillance data. However Pfizer have publically available phase III data available on full text. The approvals reference it's existence. I know you keep saying in layman's terms but do far you haven't understood it to put it in laymans terms. It's this simple. The currently approved vaccines in the USA, UK and EU all have extensive phase III results published which allowed them to receive emergency approval. There is nothing ambiguous

Drug manufacturers collect data endlessly.
Study to Describe the Safety, Tolerability, Immunogenicity, and Efficacy of RNA Vaccine Candidates Against COVID-19 in Healthy Individuals - Tabular View - ClinicalTrials.gov

sorry here is the finished date for the covid 19 pfizer trails i think ( again sorry if I am getting things mixed up )

Study to Describe the Safety, Tolerability, Immunogenicity, and Efficacy of RNA Vaccine Candidates Against COVID-19 in Healthy Individuals​


Study to Describe the Safety, Tolerability, Immunogenicity, and Efficacy of RNA Vaccine Candidates Against COVID-19 in Healthy Individuals - Tabular View - ClinicalTrials.gov

started April 27, 2020 finishes November 2, 2021

think this is the trial that's been showing the updated side effects and why the side effect lists have changed.

you work in this field and likely understand it better than me, but from what i understand the work isn't completed yet and there is a couple of points of concern ( according to Dr Moore )

I understand about phase 4 but from what i have read phase 3 is still ongoing and why we got an updated side effect list this month.
 
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Study to Describe the Safety, Tolerability, Immunogenicity, and Efficacy of RNA Vaccine Candidates Against COVID-19 in Healthy Individuals - Tabular View - ClinicalTrials.gov

sorry here is the finished date for the covid 19 pfizer trails i think ( again sorry if I am getting things mixed up )

Study to Describe the Safety, Tolerability, Immunogenicity, and Efficacy of RNA Vaccine Candidates Against COVID-19 in Healthy Individuals​


Study to Describe the Safety, Tolerability, Immunogenicity, and Efficacy of RNA Vaccine Candidates Against COVID-19 in Healthy Individuals - Tabular View - ClinicalTrials.gov

started April 27, 2020 finishes November 2, 2021

think this is the trial that's been showing the updated side effects and why the side effect lists have changed.

you work in this field and likely understand it better than me, but from what i understand the work isn't completed yet and there is a couple of points of concern ( according to Dr Moore )

I understand about phase 4 but from what i have read phase 3 is still ongoing and why we got an updated side effect list this month.
If you don't believe me then there is not much more I can say
 
If you don't believe me then there is not much more I can say
i didn't say that and have no reason to not believe you, but that study I listed above is for phase 2 and 3 trials ( pfizer ) and has a primary finish date of Nov 2021 and will continue to collect data for 2 years after which i guess is the backbone of phase 4?

my limited understanding was it was common knowledge that the trials weren't fully finished when the vaccines where approved, which I agree with btw, but as we get to the younger and younger ages I understand why some maybe are concerned with getting a jab when covid isnt a real problem for them, its the whole risk to reward.
 
We're in a position where it's conceivable to open up, not ignoring the mistakes and tragedy along the way,. Working with Americans every day of the week I can tell you in New York (apart from tourism) it's back to a pre-covid way of life and everyone knows that's the case in states like Texas as well.

It's a mix of political jousting & posturing from the NZ PM , IMO, who has her own invidious position to wrangle with having done an excellent job initially. Different political pressures in Scotland, a lot of Scots thinking the grass is greener in England opening up...we can't forget all politicians play politics when necessary.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, i'd like to know where people's vaccine busting variant concerns are really rooted. We've already heard from the CMO that vaccines will be adjusted to deal with variants in the same way flu is managed year to year...to suggest a variant of a disease we have a vaccine for already will completely blindside said vaccine and rip through the population is to live in fear of pandemics ad infinitum
Maybe if she spent as much time concentrating on vaccinating the NZ population as she did on criticising other countries they'd have more than 10% who've had two jabs

They can't be a prison island forever
Or this
 
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We're in a position where it's conceivable to open up, not ignoring the mistakes and tragedy along the way,. Working with Americans every day of the week I can tell you in New York (apart from tourism) it's back to a pre-covid way of life and everyone knows that's the case in states like Texas as well.

It's a mix of political jousting & posturing from the NZ PM , IMO, who has her own invidious position to wrangle with having done an excellent job initially. Different political pressures in Scotland, a lot of Scots thinking the grass is greener in England opening up...we can't forget all politicians play politics when necessary.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, i'd like to know where people's virus busting variant concerns are really rooted. We've already heard from the CMO that vaccines will be adjusted to deal with variants in the same with as flu is managed year to year...to suggest a variant of a disease we have a vaccine for already will completely blindside said vaccine and rip through the population is to live in fear of pandemics ad infinitum

Or this

Loads of US states have been fully open for weeks - some for months - and there is no chance their health services are going to be overran because they've vaccinated millions of people

I think the NZ leader is playing to the gallery to hide their shit vaccine rollout - they can stay locked down forever if that's what they want
 
Loads of US states have been fully open for weeks - some for months - and there is no chance their health services are going to be overran because they've vaccinated millions of people

I think the NZ leader is playing to the gallery to hide their shit vaccine rollout - they can stay locked down forever if that's what they want
It'll be interesting what happens in the UK when we open up, but more interesting IMO is how countries who have pursued zero covid proceed when (gradually) those around them adopt the type of policies we are rolling out. With Europe's improving vaccinations you'll see them following suit soon, France opening up for those vaccinated etc in the coming weeks etc..how NZ & Australia manage the next 6 months is far more interesting than our own situation.
 
It'll be interesting what happens in the UK when we open up, but more interesting IMO is how countries who have pursued zero covid proceed when (gradually) those around them adopt the type of policies we are rolling out. With Europe's improving vaccinations you'll see them following suit soon, France opening up for those vaccinated etc in the coming weeks etc..how NZ & Australia manage the next 6 months is far more interesting than our own situation.

Countries like Greece and Spain have to open up to foreign travellers - huge parts of their economies and massive coastal areas depend on people like us spending lots of money there - staying locked down isn't an option for them
 
Other countries leaders have a right to express their concerns. It is known that letting it rip in a partially vaccinated population potentially increases the risk of escape variants. Such a variant threatens the whole world. I would never have believed previously that a sensible country like the UK would be following such a reckless path. It's a gamble and they'll probably get away with it after which they'll crow that they were right but if it goes wrong we're all fu@#ed.

I get your concerns mate but from looking at the figures I can see why they are keen to do this now

In reality we have anywhere between 40-50 million people who have been vaccinated at least once (or had Covid) and 35-40 million fully vaccinated or had Covid. We have a large amount of innate immunity now and the virus will mutate more with increasing numbers of infections.

When you consider that a few weeks ago India were having 400,000 cases a day this was the biggest test for a massive deathly variant to emerge - the reason they were in that position was the delta variant which peaked and numbers slowed despite a much worse vaccination number. Also Brazil have done fuck all to prevent transmission in huge numbers again no deadly vaccine escaping variant has appeared

The reality is the vaccines are targeting an absolutely vital part of the virus - without the spike it doesnt work - we can already see that the 'vaccine escape' is mainly folk getting symptoms again and those in trouble are way more likely not to be immunised

As I see it they had 3 options
(1) Open now
(2) Wait till October
(3) Wait till next Spring

None of them are good with the cases on the rise and to be honest if deaths do get a lot higher then there will be restrictions back in place Sept/ Oct time as they will be needed. I have a huge amount of respect for what NZ have done for this but they have seemed to be sitting on their hands with the vaccine rollout and been looking at the low numbers there rather than cracking on. If the delta variant gets in there they will be in as much of a mess as anywhere else
 
I get your concerns mate but from looking at the figures I can see why they are keen to do this now

In reality we have anywhere between 40-50 million people who have been vaccinated at least once (or had Covid) and 35-40 million fully vaccinated or had Covid. We have a large amount of innate immunity now and the virus will mutate more with increasing numbers of infections.

When you consider that a few weeks ago India were having 400,000 cases a day this was the biggest test for a massive deathly variant to emerge - the reason they were in that position was the delta variant which peaked and numbers slowed despite a much worse vaccination number. Also Brazil have done fuck all to prevent transmission in huge numbers again no deadly vaccine escaping variant has appeared

The reality is the vaccines are targeting an absolutely vital part of the virus - without the spike it doesnt work - we can already see that the 'vaccine escape' is mainly folk getting symptoms again and those in trouble are way more likely not to be immunised

As I see it they had 3 options
(1) Open now
(2) Wait till October
(3) Wait till next Spring

None of them are good with the cases on the rise and to be honest if deaths do get a lot higher then there will be restrictions back in place Sept/ Oct time as they will be needed. I have a huge amount of respect for what NZ have done for this but they have seemed to be sitting on their hands with the vaccine rollout and been looking at the low numbers there rather than cracking on. If the delta variant gets in there they will be in as much of a mess as anywhere else

NZ's approach seems to be to hide behind the sofa until the rest of the world kills the monster

They've got a nerve criticising the UK after all the money, time and effort we've put into a vaccine which is being rolled out at cost price
 
NZ's approach seems to be to hide behind the sofa until the rest of the world kills the monster

They've got a nerve criticising the UK after all the money, time and effort we've put into a vaccine which is being rolled out at cost price

I think she has done a great job of looking after her people until vaccines became a factor - once they were they should be jabbing everyone as fast as they can and they seem to have been a bit complacent

We were slow off the mark in Canada but now have nearly 80% of eligible people with a single shot (and that means every 12 and over - where I work if you turn 12 this year you are also eligible for the vaccine) and over 40% of over 12s fully vaccinated so we will be largely finished by mid to end August with over 80% coverage in the over 12s
 
Maybe if she spent as much time concentrating on vaccinating the NZ population as she did on criticising other countries they'd have more than 10% who've had two jabs

They can't be a prison island forever
They will have to be. Even if 100% of the population is vaccinated and they opened up then people would still get infected and die even if at lower levels than without a vaccine. That and a Zero Covid policy are incompatible.
 
I get your concerns mate but from looking at the figures I can see why they are keen to do this now

In reality we have anywhere between 40-50 million people who have been vaccinated at least once (or had Covid) and 35-40 million fully vaccinated or had Covid. We have a large amount of innate immunity now and the virus will mutate more with increasing numbers of infections.

When you consider that a few weeks ago India were having 400,000 cases a day this was the biggest test for a massive deathly variant to emerge - the reason they were in that position was the delta variant which peaked and numbers slowed despite a much worse vaccination number. Also Brazil have done fuck all to prevent transmission in huge numbers again no deadly vaccine escaping variant has appeared

The reality is the vaccines are targeting an absolutely vital part of the virus - without the spike it doesnt work - we can already see that the 'vaccine escape' is mainly folk getting symptoms again and those in trouble are way more likely not to be immunised

As I see it they had 3 options
(1) Open now
(2) Wait till October
(3) Wait till next Spring

None of them are good with the cases on the rise and to be honest if deaths do get a lot higher then there will be restrictions back in place Sept/ Oct time as they will be needed. I have a huge amount of respect for what NZ have done for this but they have seemed to be sitting on their hands with the vaccine rollout and been looking at the low numbers there rather than cracking on. If the delta variant gets in there they will be in as much of a mess as anywhere else
I don't think an escape variant is the biggest concern. Like I said it's a risk but not the main one. The biggest risk with this strategy is thousands of young people and potentially kids with long Covid and ongoing chronic health problems. What should they have done? I would have advocated keeping restrictions until everyone was double jabbed including adolescents. Are you doing any under 18s in Canada?. I'm a bit sceptical about this talk of an exit wave and Whitty's explanation that we can't avoid it only move it. It would seem to me that an exit wave would be smaller if more people are vaccinated. I agree the NZ on the vaccine front. Their population is vulnerable. I don't know why they have delays but it's a risk for them.
 
I don't think an escape variant is the biggest concern. Like I said it's a risk but not the main one. The biggest risk with this strategy is thousands of young people and potentially kids with long Covid and ongoing chronic health problems. What should they have done? I would have advocated keeping restrictions until everyone was double jabbed including adolescents. Are you doing any under 18s in Canada?. I'm a bit sceptical about this talk of an exit wave and Whitty's explanation that we can't avoid it only move it. It would seem to me that an exit wave would be smaller if more people are vaccinated. I agree the NZ on the vaccine front. Their population is vulnerable. I don't know why they have delays but it's a risk for them.

it would be, but would we want the exit wave to be in the autumn or winter? the answer is probably 'no'

so that means keeping the restrictions till next spring at the earliest. i dont think the country can afford that from an economical and social perspective

i hate the tories with a passion, but i think this is the right thing to do. rip the plaster off. get it done. by september we could feasibly be fully open, with fully open schools and the only restrictions left will be masks on public transport, and the infection rates dropping from mid august. if thats where we are at in september then it will prove to be the correct decision
 
Jesus do we need to go through this again. There are already variants that evade the vaccine!

Even people who have been double jabbed with Pfizer are 64% protected that means for every 34 in 100 people the delta variant is already evading the vaccine. How else are those people getting it if it not evading??

It’s now just a question of magnitude.
Jesus do we need to go through this again. The vaccines primary objective is to prevent death, what’s the percentage of protection from that with the Delta variant?
 
Jesus do we need to go through this again. The vaccines primary objective is to prevent death, what’s the percentage of protection from that with the Delta variant?

93% which is nigh on 7% lower then the 99… % which it was effective against the Alpha.

So again the outcome is the same and people who talk about a variant not evading vaccines are talking shite.

The Delta is already evading it and causing more illness and deaths, it’s just a question of magnitude
 

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