Massive fire in London

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I'm Spartacus said:
But surely a decent supplier wouldn't flog something that isn't suitable for certain applications, especially if they know it's against the regs or dangerous? Even a diy store wouldn't sell someone a little sheet of flammable foil covered foam insulation if the gormless customer told them it was to rest against the fireplace to block the heat from a log burner when it got too hot.
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You would think that would be the case. The exact reasons are unknown, but unfortunately it wasn't the case here.

I'm not staying for certain, but in the scenario where the cladding manufacturer knows this doesn't meet the regs, has informed his client yet the client does not heed this advice, should the cladding manufacturer reject the full order on moral grounds?

It is easy to see this with hindsight, but somehow that building was clad with a product which was incorrect for that application above a certain height.

I don't know if a law exists whereby if the cladding manufacturer knowingly supplied a product which is illegal in terms of building codes, but continues to supply it anyway. They will be under scrutiny, no doubt, but how much blame is apportioned to them, the main contractor, the architect and local government is yet to be seen.
 
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Kevj said:
You would think that would be the case. The exact reasons are unknown, but unfortunately it wasn't the case here.

I'm not staying for certain, but in the scenario where the cladding manufacturer knows this doesn't meet the regs, has informed his client yet the client does not heed this advice, should the cladding manufacturer reject the full order on moral grounds?

It is easy to see this with hindsight, but somehow that building was clad with a product which was incorrect for that application above a certain height.

I don't know if a law exists whereby if the cladding manufacturer knowingly supplied a product which is illegal in terms of building codes, but continues to supply it anyway. They will be under scrutiny, no doubt, but how much blame is apportioned to them, the main contractor, the architect and local government is yet to be seen.
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Could be the case that the contractor ordered so many sheets of material and didn't tell the supplier what is was for.
 
I'm Spartacus said:
But surely a decent supplier wouldn't flog something that isn't suitable for certain applications, especially if they know it's against the regs or dangerous? Even a diy store wouldn't sell someone a little sheet of flammable foil covered foam insulation if the gormless customer told them it was to rest against the fireplace to block the heat from a log burner when it got too hot.
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Are you gas safe registered? Go and try to buy a gas part or fitting without a card or even a clue, easier than buying a newspaper. Scale that up a bit add in a couple of layers of beaurocracy and its easy to see how it happens to projects like this. The worry is the breakdown in quality control that hasnt picked it up before its been fitted

Been on the radio it was the fridge that started it and the manufacturer has been warned. If its one of the known risk brands then there definately needs to be questions asked
 
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From the Guardian:

The Grenfell Tower refurbishment used Celotex RS5000 insulation which sits behind the cladding panels.

The material is made from polyisocyanurate (PIR) which is combustible and produces toxic fumes when it burns - notably hydrogen cyanide.

In a report published in 2011, Anna Stec and Richard Hull at the Centre for Fire and Hazard Science at the University of Central Lancashire found that one kilogram of polyisocyanurate burning in a badly-ventilated area can produce enough lethal gas to fill 100 cubic metres.
 
Whirlpool be buggered. Who incidentally have had massive rows with the Goverment over their blasé attitude to product safety.....
 
We just had an email through warning that a Premier Inn (brand new build) next to one of our offices is suspected to have this cladding and it's being inspected and evaluated but in the meantime to ensure everyone knows all appropriate Fire & evacuation procedures, warnings re: blocking escape routes etc.
 
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Flared Hicks said:
We just had an email through warning that a Premier Inn (brand new build) next to one of our offices is suspected to have this cladding and it's being inspected and evaluated but in the meantime to ensure everyone knows all appropriate Fire & evacuation procedures, warnings re: blocking escape routes etc.
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suppose thats one positive to have come out of it so far. A lot of people have woken up from their complacency and are checking and making sure
 
andy m said:
From the Guardian:

The Grenfell Tower refurbishment used Celotex RS5000 insulation which sits behind the cladding panels.

The material is made from polyisocyanurate (PIR) which is combustible and produces toxic fumes when it burns - notably hydrogen cyanide.

In a report published in 2011, Anna Stec and Richard Hull at the Centre for Fire and Hazard Science at the University of Central Lancashire found that one kilogram of polyisocyanurate burning in a badly-ventilated area can produce enough lethal gas to fill 100 cubic metres.
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But according to their website, this product meets BR 135 for fire safety, and can be used above 60 feet
 
yorkyexile said:
I

suppose thats one positive to have come out of it so far. A lot of people have woken up from their complacency and are checking and making sure
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Yeah one thing our company are hot on is employee safety. If I book a trip to Paris I get a warning that they are still on heightened security alert status and any trip overseas is accompanied by notifications of any planned protests, areas of potential danger etc.
 
yorkyexile said:
Are you gas safe registered? Go and try to buy a gas part or fitting without a card or even a clue, easier than buying a newspaper. Scale that up a bit add in a couple of layers of beaurocracy and its easy to see how it happens to projects like this. The worry is the breakdown in quality control that hasnt picked it up before its been fitted

Been on the radio it was the fridge that started it and the manufacturer has been warned. If its one of the known risk brands then there definately needs to be questions asked
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I was gas safe up until a few years ago. But aye you're right, it's a bit mad really isn't it?
 
jayjaysafc said:
Supplier/manufacturer most likely would have been involved in the design stage
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I disagree. There are many suppliers of this type of cladding, it is almost an off the shelf item to the extent the final decision by procurement will be down to price and lead in time. Door and window manufacturers are not involved at design stage.

In cases where they are, the original specifier (architect of LA in this case) may name a specific supplier. When the contract goes it to tender, the main contractor may have a preferred supplier which is different to that named at design stage. I'd also wager that the original brief simply specified the type and colour of cladding and the supplier was not considered at that time.
 
Wilfy said:
Could be the case that the contractor ordered so many sheets of material and didn't tell the supplier what is was for.
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Unlikely in a job of this size?

When I worked in the cladding industry (albeit 35 years ago) we'd often get orders for small jobs not knowing what it was for, but a job of this size would have been on our radar from the start and we'd have been in constant contact with the architect and the potential contractor - from spec to delivery of the sheets.
 
AB22 Easy Tiger said:
Unlikely in a job of this size?

When I worked in the cladding industry (albeit 35 years ago) we'd often get orders for small jobs not knowing what it was for, but a job of this size would have been on our radar from the start and we'd have been in constant contact with the architect and the potential contractor - from spec to delivery of the sheets.
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This is what I was getting at @Kevj
 
jayjaysafc said:
This is what I was getting at @Kevj
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I've covered this in a previous post. Let's say for example it is the fire doors that are to blame for this atrocity. The fire door supplier is invited to tender and informs their client that the spec is incorrect and the fire rating should be 60 minutes, not 15 as requested. The supplier isn't going to supply the more expensive door at the same price as the less expensive 15 minute fire door. Who is in the wrong?

But in the both cases, fire door manufacturers will be involved in ensuring the door fits the opening, not in adherence to the overall fire strategy of the building. And the suppliers who may be involved at early stages of design are not always the final supplier as the main contractor is not obliged to use the original specifiers supplier unless frame agreements or similar are in place.
 
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AB22 Easy Tiger said:
Unlikely in a job of this size?

When I worked in the cladding industry (albeit 35 years ago) we'd often get orders for small jobs not knowing what it was for, but a job of this size would have been on our radar from the start and we'd have been in constant contact with the architect and the potential contractor - from spec to delivery of the sheets.
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I could order 500 sheets of trespa today and not be asked what it was for, this is also used in cladding and has fr and non fr grades.
 
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