Massive fire in London

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wilberforce said:
that's why arses will be KICKED mate, did anyone expect the whole block to go up.... NO
but why on earth would you use flammable materials where people live, it's like using a flammable fire guard ! :confused:
once they took away the fire brigades statutory rights to do fire inspections on properties it was a recipe for disaster ! they can self regulate now, which means...........
the residents had said before the fire that fire doors were missing etc
also they had retro fitted a gas main all the way up the stair well, coring thorough floor by floor, this would have been heaven to a fire wanting to spread, it would just rush through the gap around the pipe ! this would cause a massive problem for the people trying to get down the stairs to escape ! stairwells should have fire protection, and lots have pressurised stairwells to keep the smoke out
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I used to work in the container glass industry, due to the nature of the work each plant had its own fire brigade - amateurs, but well trained and with modern equipment.
They carried out regular checks but we were also independantly audited.

Despite of all this, our fire insurers would carry out there own inspection.

Are these buildings not checked, first on completion and then at regular intervals by the insurers?
 


Jardin said:
Just my view of the facts released on it so far. No-one is going to deliberately choose a fire-risk to shave a pound or two off each panel imo.
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Just interested that's all. There is a huge range on knowledge on this board.

I wish I could agree on the second point, but something has happened, whether it be at choosing the material by installer, planning or perhaps a change in the compound due to installation / age. Something has happened and I just hope that you second point is correct.
 
I wonder/hope (?) if this is more of an error than an inherent risk.

For example, the material is safe IF its installed in a specific way, which was forgotten, or skimped in this one example - like those Scottish school buildings which were built sloppily.
 
Jardin said:
For those wondering about cladding, my view is as follows:

The tender was submitted to government with different cost options for each section. Governement, under cost pressures, opted for the cheapest of each option. Nowhere in the tender was it highlighted that the cheapest type was less fire-proof or that it could only be fitted to a certain height. Once the tender was returned, no-one deigned to mention that cladding couldn't be used over 12m in height or that it was more of a fire risk than the alternatives. So, unless the council clarified and then ignored that info by other means, the cladding being illegal is Rydon at fault.

Regarding the government, labour from 1999 were warned about cladding being a fire risk and ignored it. That was then ignored along with unreported issues from 2009 fire (report not completed) by the coalition. The conservatives and particularly Gavin Barwell then sat on a report from 2013 until present day regarding sprinklers in high rises, despite direct prompts from fire safety groups. All 3 governments should be held to account for that.

The local council seem quite lucky as they can currently only be held responsible alongside the conservatives for the appalling response to the disaster (apologised for by TM but no sign of anything but contempt and stupidity from Piggott- brown).
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not sure why the tender would go to the government

the local authority owns the homes and an ALMO manages it



for all capital projects the almo would organise the spec, if they had their own procurement team they would organise the tenders or pass it on to the councils procurement team (depending on what your management agreement with the councils says)

when it comes to tenders you should be specifying materials that meet whatever British Standard is appropriate for the dwelling you are refurbing..even somethign as humble as a clay brick have a british standard as does blockwork, all dependent on their application and building type

once the head of their maintenance or building teams had reviewed the tenders, their recomendation would go to the ALMO board for approval and after that to a full council meeting or an executive team of the council for approval

at no point would central government ever be involved..it would simply be unworkable waiting for them if they had to approve every building scheme by every council in the country

city of London may be different though...dont know as I dont work there
 
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GingerNick said:
not sure why the tender would go to the government

the local authority owns the homes and an ALMO manages it



for all capital projects the almo would organise the spec, if they had their own procurement team they would organise the tenders or pass it on to the councils procurement team (depending on what your management agreement with the councils says)

when it comes to tenders you should be specifying materials that meet whatever British Standard is appropriate for the dwelling you are refurbing..even somethign as humble as a clay brick have a british standard as does blockwork, all dependent on their application and building type

once the head of their maintenance or building teams had reviewed the tenders, their recomendation would go to the ALMO board for approval and after that to a full council meeting or an executive team of the council for approval

at no point would central government ever be involved..it would simply be unworkable waiting for them if they had to approve every building scheme by every council in the country
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Aye, I meant council in that first paragraph but only seem to have used the right word in the last sentence of it :confused:
 
GingerNick said:
not sure why the tender would go to the government

the local authority owns the homes and an ALMO manages it



for all capital projects the almo would organise the spec, if they had their own procurement team they would organise the tenders or pass it on to the councils procurement team (depending on what your management agreement with the councils says)

when it comes to tenders you should be specifying materials that meet whatever British Standard is appropriate for the dwelling you are refurbing..even somethign as humble as a clay brick have a british standard as does blockwork, all dependent on their application and building type

once the head of their maintenance or building teams had reviewed the tenders, their recomendation would go to the ALMO board for approval and after that to a full council meeting or an executive team of the council for approval

at no point would central government ever be involved..it would simply be unworkable waiting for them if they had to approve every building scheme by every council in the country

city of London may be different though...dont know as I dont work there
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In addition to the above, the renovation design may have sub contracted to an architectural practice who would specify building materials to meet, as a minimum, relevant building codes. If the error occurred at this level, then the main contractor and or cladding supplier will have provided prices to meet this specification. They are under no obligation to do more, however, I would also expect they advise that this type of cladding shall only be used up to a certain height (No. Of floors) and the spec is incorrect. They also have a duty of care.
 
Kevj said:
In addition to the above, the renovation design may have sub contracted to an architectural practice who would specify building materials to meet, as a minimum, relevant building codes. If the error occurred at this level, then the main contractor and or cladding supplier will have provided prices to meet this specification. They are under no obligation to do more, however, I would also expect they advise that this type of cladding shall only be used up to a certain height (No. Of floors) and the spec is incorrect. They also have a duty of care.
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The manufacturer will have been aware of the installation on a job of that size.
 
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super-niall said:
The manufacturer will have been aware of the installation on a job of that size.
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Of course. They will.havr been given drawings to work from to allow them to initially price the work, then to produce their own manufacturing drawings. There is no doubt at all they will have known. My point being, is if their customer has ordered a particular spec. Then the supplier will have supplied to that spec. The truth will out following the investigation.
 
Kevj said:
Of course. They will.havr been given drawings to work from to allow them to initially price the work, then to produce their own manufacturing drawings. There is no doubt at all they will have known. My point being, is if their customer has ordered a particular spec. Then the supplier will have supplied to that spec. The truth will out following the investigation.
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yup..or in the case of the camden blocks, the customer specced one type and the contractor fitted another type

so who is cuplable in this case? the contractor or the inspector who didnt seem to notice they had not fitted the right stuff and signed the job off?

if they fitted a not specced cladding..where else have they cut corners, I would be going back over these projects and thoroughly checking whats been fitted against what was specced and priced

so many balls ups at different levels
 
GingerNick said:
yup..or in the case of the camden blocks, the customer specced one type and the contractor fitted another type

so who is cuplable in this case? the contractor or the inspector who didnt seem to notice they had not fitted the right stuff and signed the job off?

if they fitted a not specced cladding..where else have they cut corners, I would be going back over these projects and thoroughly checking whats been fitted against what was specced and priced

so many balls ups at different levels
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I fully agree that is another possibility. I just hope the documentation and emails are all available for review. I'd wager there are some folk with nippy bums atm.
 
Kevj said:
Of course. They will.havr been given drawings to work from to allow them to initially price the work, then to produce their own manufacturing drawings. There is no doubt at all they will have known. My point being, is if their customer has ordered a particular spec. Then the supplier will have supplied to that spec. The truth will out following the investigation.
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But surely a decent supplier wouldn't flog something that isn't suitable for certain applications, especially if they know it's against the regs or dangerous? Even a diy store wouldn't sell someone a little sheet of flammable foil covered foam insulation if the gormless customer told them it was to rest against the fireplace to block the heat from a log burner when it got too hot.
 
GingerNick said:
yup..or in the case of the camden blocks, the customer specced one type and the contractor fitted another type

so who is cuplable in this case? the contractor or the inspector who didnt seem to notice they had not fitted the right stuff and signed the job off?

if they fitted a not specced cladding..where else have they cut corners, I would be going back over these projects and thoroughly checking whats been fitted against what was specced and priced

so many balls ups at different levels
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Unless the cladding is marked in such a way that the inspector could easily identify what standard it adheres to and he sees it before it goes on the wall, there's not a lot he can check. He can hardly do an in situ flammability check. I@ think the building inspection system for this type of work is far too easy to get around. The contractors know what the inspector is looking for and can play the game. For example, building timber is may graded and the ends of each piece are painted with a stain to indicate the grade. If your build specifies red timber and the inspector only sees it after it's installed, he will ask to see the cut ends to check that they are red. I'm sure there are a few builders who carry a box of red ends in the van, and use lower grade green timber on the job.

None of this is helped by the fact that planning and building control have seen there numbers slashed in recent years. They can't possibly perform full inspection on every build. I think there has just been too much reliance on 'Duty of care' and the assumption that the correct materials were used and fitted properly
 
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