Maradona

[Stortford]

I think with Pele, it's the fact that a lot of his goals came in the equivalent to the Northumberland senior cup. Would be like Shearer banging in 8 against Morpeth Town then adding that to his total. Next round stick 5 past West Allotment etc.
Yes he has 3 world cups, but he was part of Brazilian teams loaded with superstars. He only played the opening game in 62 iirc before succumbing to injury , and they went on to win it without him. Sweden in 58, yes he was good, and in 70 as well.
I don't think he ever really dominated a tournament in the way Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradona did.
That and the fact that up until 1970 or 71, Brazil didn't have a national league. He was playing for a huge club against minnows from the region. Once the Brazilian league was national his goal ratio dropped to 1 in 3.
Then he went off to the NASL with all the other famous players out for an easy life

You make a good point re the Brazilian League but to say his goals came in the equivalent to Northern Premier is well off. His record in the Copa Libertadores is seriously impressive. He was player of the tournament in 1970 despite all the other stars and to say he went to the US for an easy life, seriously??? he was 34 at the time and having spent his whole career in Brazil he probably went for the pay day his career deserved, he wasn’t earning the £300k a week players of his level do now.

 

[chunksafc]

They may well, but they'd also be playing against far superior defenders who have the benefit of everything the modern day player has.

Messi and Ronaldo are protected more than those mentioned in the past, but they're not playing against goat herders every week.

As for superior defenders, go and ask grown ups about Beckenbauer, Gentile etc

 

[AC Mack]

Neither were the players I mention, they payed against some of the best defenders ever to play the game

At the time.

The players you mention were the greats of their time. Messi and Ronaldo are the greats of today. If you're going to talk about the older players being kicked to bits and not having the benefits the modern day player, you need to also appreciate the benefits they had back when they were playing.

As for superior defenders, go and ask grown ups about Beckenbauer, Gentile etc

Don't embarrass yourself.

 

[chunksafc]

At the time.

The players you mention were the greats of their time. Messi and Ronaldo are the greats of today. If you're going to talk about the older players being kicked to bits and not having the benefits the modern day player, you need to also appreciate the benefits they had back when they were playing.


Don't embarrass yourself.

Says the bloke who can't see past Ronaldo and Messi. The fat Ronaldo if he had stayed injury free would have been better than both

 

[Stortford]

At the time.

The players you mention were the greats of their time. Messi and Ronaldo are the greats of today. If you're going to talk about the older players being kicked to bits and not having the benefits the modern day player, you need to also appreciate the benefits they had back when they were playing.

Sorry I have no idea what you are trying to say, what benefits did the older players have when they were playing?

 

[AC Mack]

Says the bloke who can't see past Ronaldo and Messi. The fat Ronaldo if he had stayed injury free would have been better than both

Fat Ronaldo was great and very much my era. Fortunately I'm open minded enough to accept that Messi and Ronaldo are better.

Sorry I have no idea what you are trying to say, what benefits did the older players have when they were playing?

Poorer defenders, many more goals being scored (if we're going back far enough).

 

[chunksafc]

Fat Ronaldo was great and very much my era. Fortunately I'm open minded enough to accept that Messi and Ronaldo are better.


Poorer defenders, many more goals being scored (if we're going back far enough).

Poor defenders? Wow that's some statement.

Fat Ronaldo at his peak was unplayable and if he hadn't had the injuries would have been considered one of the greatest of all time, he had everything Messi and Ronaldo have combined

 

[Stortford]

Fat Ronaldo was great and very much my era. Fortunately I'm open minded enough to accept that Messi and Ronaldo are better.


Poorer defenders, many more goals being scored (if we're going back far enough).

Aye Serie A had really poor defenders when Maradona took an average side to 2 league titles , just coz defenders are faster doesn’t mean they are better.

 

[AC Mack]

Poor defenders? Wow that's some statement.

Fat Ronaldo at his peak was unplayable and if he hadn't had the injuries would have been considered one of the greatest of all time, he had everything Messi and Ronaldo have combined

Fat Ronaldo was brilliant, one of the best players I've ever seen. He also scored 30 league goals once in his career. Cristiano Ronaldo has done that 7 (seven) times. Messi has done it 8 (eight) times.

Aye Serie A had really poor defenders when Maradona took an average side to 2 league titles , just coz defenders are faster doesn’t mean they are better.

He was a great of his time, and one of the best players ever no doubt.

 

[Sallycinamon]

Serie A defenders were notoriously tight in the era when Maradona was at Napoli, when they couldn’t stop you legitimately they stopped you by other means, they were ruthless. Sure Milan won the scuddeto one year by scoring just 36 goals in 34 games, they won it by conceding just 14 goals in another season. Maldini and Baresi were centre-back partners 196 times for Milan, in those games they only conceded 23 goals, a ridiculous stat which goes to show how hard a place it was to go for attacking players. The fact Maradona went there and ripped the place up proves his quality.

In Spain Ronaldo and Messi were scoring 3’s and 4’s every other week as their teams were annihilating teams 7 and 8-1. Bit of a different environment to play your football.

 

[cbwhu]

You make a good point re the Brazilian League but to say his goals came in the equivalent to Northern Premier is well off. His record in the Copa Libertadores is seriously impressive. He was player of the tournament in 1970 despite all the other stars and to say he went to the US for an easy life, seriously??? he was 34 at the time and having spent his whole career in Brazil he probably went for the pay day his career deserved, he wasn’t earning the £300k a week players of his level do now.

as I posted his record against the reigning European Champions as played 4 scored 9. That's against the very best Europe had to offer

 

[Bear]

Over-rated. It's a bit 'fashionable' to go along with him being such a great player so to be seen as open-minded, when others can't stand the cheat.

He was a cheat, drugs, God and so on, who only had two decent matches in that World Cup in '86. Was shite in the World Cup before that. Did well at Napoli but was owned during his time in Spain.

Fuck me, he's not the only player to look good against England in a hundred degrees.

A very good footballer, who had the quality to take the game away from you, but hugely over-rated.

Possibly the worst post ever

 

[cbwhu]

Aye Serie A had really poor defenders when Maradona took an average side to 2 league titles , just coz defenders are faster doesn’t mean they are better.

yeah Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Brehme, Bergomi, crap the lot of them

those first 3 are better than any defender playing today by a mile with the possible and only possible exception of Van Dijk

you can have that for free

 

[What A Waster]

Serie A defenders were notoriously tight in the era when Maradona was at Napoli, when they couldn’t stop you legitimately they stopped you by other means, they were ruthless. Sure Milan won the scuddeto one year by scoring just 36 goals in 34 games, they won it by conceding just 14 goals in another season. Maldini and Baresi were centre-back partners 196 times for Milan, in those games they only conceded 23 goals, a ridiculous stat which goes to show how hard a place it was to go for attacking players. The fact Maradona went there and ripped the place up proves his quality.

In Spain Ronaldo and Messi were scoring 3’s and 4’s every other week as their teams were annihilating teams 7 and 8-1. Bit of a different environment to play your football.

If Spanish defences are that bad now, why aren't more strikers hitting 30 plus per season in Spain?
Stands to reason that loads of strikers would just be able to score freely if it was down to the defences, as they all play them.
Messi and Ronaldo are the anomaly not the rule.

 

[cbwhu]

If Spanish defences are that bad now, why aren't more strikers hitting 30 plus per season in Spain?
Stands to reason that loads of strikers would just be able to score freely if it was down to the defences, as they all play them.
Messi and Ronaldo are the anomaly not the rule.

because everyone at the other clubs odes not have the HUGE financial advantages (more than ever before) and massively priced squads that the top 2 do

if the focal point of those two sides wasn't outscoring everyone else by a mile there would be something wrong
I reckon I could have got 15-20 a season with Xavi and Iniesta teeing my up and I'm shite

 

[What A Waster]

because everyone at the other clubs odes not have the HUGE financial advantages (more than ever before) and massively priced squads that the top 2 do

if the focal point of those two sides wasn't outscoring everyone else by a mile there would be something wrong
I reckon I could have got 15-20 a season with Xavi and Iniesta teeing my up and I'm shite

But those sides weren't as free scoring as that until those two players came along and started hitting 40+ in a season. In 11/12 Messi got 50, Ronaldo 46, next on the list was Falcao at Atletico with 24.
It's not a one off either. It's not the defences that's weak. It's two players who are absolutely miles better than everybody else.
The best teams with the best players will likely score more. That is just how it works. Seems an unusual thing to try and use to discredit the ability of two players. Especially when the only other player to rival them has been Suarez for one season

 

[The Hesford Diet]

Puskas and the Magnificent Magyars of the early 50's stand the test of time too.

 

[cbwhu]

I reckon I could have got 15-20 a season with Xavi and Iniesta teeing my up and I'm shite

But those sides weren't as free scoring as that until those two players came along and started hitting 40+ in a season. In 11/12 Messi got 50, Ronaldo 46, next on the list was Falcao at Atletico with 24.
It's not a one off either. It's not the defences that's weak. It's two players who are absolutely miles better than everybody else.
The best teams with the best players will likely score more. That is just how it works. Seems an unusual thing to try and use to discredit the ability of two players. Especially when the only other player to rival them has been Suarez for one season

but their two sides are miles better than everyone else too

you ca't realistically expect anybody NOT playing for Barca or Madrid to compete

why did Ronaldo only get more than 20 league goals once in England for example

2008-9 Man United - 33 games 18 goals
2009-10 Madrid - 29 games 26 goals

he didn't suddenly get that much better over the summer he moved to a side where it is easier to play and get goals

 

[Smiler]

I don't think so.

Not far off though. I believe Messi and Ronaldo to be the best two to ever play the game. The ridiculous stats, over such a long period of time, the trophy haul, they're unrivallled imo

Pele was better, he has the stats and the trophies to back it all up

I think with Pele, it's the fact that a lot of his goals came in the equivalent to the Northumberland senior cup. Would be like Shearer banging in 8 against Morpeth Town then adding that to his total. Next round stick 5 past West Allotment etc.
Yes he has 3 world cups, but he was part of Brazilian teams loaded with superstars. He only played the opening game in 62 iirc before succumbing to injury , and they went on to win it without him. Sweden in 58, yes he was good, and in 70 as well.
I don't think he ever really dominated a tournament in the way Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradona did.
That and the fact that up until 1970 or 71, Brazil didn't have a national league. He was playing for a huge club against minnows from the region. Once the Brazilian league was national his goal ratio dropped to 1 in 3.
Then he went off to the NASL with all the other famous players out for an easy life

How the fuck did he play in the Northumberland senior cup if the league he was in was full of absolute superstars?

 

[What A Waster]

I reckon I could have got 15-20 a season with Xavi and Iniesta teeing my up and I'm shite

but their two sides are miles better than everyone else too

you ca't realistically expect anybody NOT playing for Barca or Madrid to compete

why did Ronaldo only get more than 20 league goals once in England for example

2008-9 Man United - 33 games 18 goals
2009-10 Madrid - 29 games 26 goals

he didn't suddenly get that much better over the summer he moved to a side where it is easier to play and get goals

Ibrahimovic managed 16 in his season at Barcelona. You think you could do as well as him


I see what you're doing isolating individual seasons to try and prove your point, and i understand it's hard for people to accept that modern players can be better than the nostalgic versions of players people remember.
But the fact is they're ridiculously good, and it's not just down to luck or a weak league. Look at the numbers they hit in the champions league, its not like they're playing farmers and postmen every fortnight in the CL

Pele was better, he has the stats and the trophies to back it all up


How the fuck did he play in the Northumberland senior cup if the league he was in was full of absolute superstars?

Regional championships in Brazil.
Brazilian national team loaded with stars.