Maradona

What A Waster said:
Fair enough.

What makes Pele better than Cristiano Ronaldo in your opinion?
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Can I join the debate? I think what makes Pele and Maradona stand out above Messi and Ronaldo is that players are so protected today, breathe next to Messi & Ronaldo and you concede a foul possibly a yellow, Pele and Maradona were seen as fair game, just watch the highlights of Pele being assaulted at Goodison Park in 66 as an example.

I do wonder what level of skill and achievement they could have reached with the protection afforded today or whether Messi and Ronaldo would have had the heart to produce the level they do if they had lumps kicked out of them every week.
 


Stortford said:
Can I join the debate? I think what makes Pele and Maradona stand out above Messi and Ronaldo is that players are so protected today, breathe next to Messi & Ronaldo and you concede a foul possibly a yellow, Pele and Maradona were seen as fair game, just watch the highlights of Pele being assaulted at Goodison Park in 66 as an example.

I do wonder what level of skill and achievement they could have reached with the protection afforded today or whether Messi and Ronaldo would have had the heart to produce the level they do if they had lumps kicked out of them every week.
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A good point well made.
 
If it wasn't for that military junta, we would have had Maradona in our side for trips to Boothferry Park, Boundary Park, and the like, inspired by playing alongside Roly Gregoire and Rod Belfitt. To this day, Diego looks back and thinks of what might have been.
 
Stortford said:
Can I join the debate? I think what makes Pele and Maradona stand out above Messi and Ronaldo is that players are so protected today, breathe next to Messi & Ronaldo and you concede a foul possibly a yellow, Pele and Maradona were seen as fair game, just watch the highlights of Pele being assaulted at Goodison Park in 66 as an example. I do wonder what level of skill and achievement they could have reached with the protection afforded today or whether Messi and Ronaldo would have had the heart to produce the level they do if they had lumps kicked out of them every week.
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Yep, fair point. I've said this on here before in this kind of debate, but think its relevant to repeat it again.

In regards to the persistent fouling that blighted the likes of Maradona and Pele's era; the best players always rise to the top. Nobody looks at an average winger from the 60s, 70s or 80s and thinks they'd be a world beater in the modern game, just because of a lack of "allowed" fouling. As an example of a player who spanned the 80s and 90s when tackling from behind and fouling was common then started to be outlawed look at Peter Beardsley. He had some good seasons in his early to mid 30s back at Newcastle, but he was still probably just as good in the 80s.
Players still try to foul Messi and Ronaldo now, in fact it is probably easier than ever to commit a foul, so their general play will be held up more. The players of old may not have won as many free kicks, but i don't think it would hinder the game as much. They get kicked, or pushed over, shirt pulled and it interrupts their rhythm. These days they get kicked, pushed, shirt pulled, still interupts their rhythm but they receive a free kick. As for getting kicked and injured, probably less common now, but we only base our opinions on the games the lads played not what they missed.

Second point... I think it's probably only really fair to compare players in the same era, rather than somebody from 50 years ago to now. In athletics, nobody says Jesse Owens or Carl Lewis or Linford Christie would beat Usain Bolt. You could argue that an athlete 30 40 or 50 years ago didn't have the same level of advanced sports science, poorer footwear, worse tracks than Usain Bolt, but it is still accepted that Bolt is the best ever, because he's ran faster than anybody before.
In football, the players of old didn't have the diet, recovery, pitches, boots, balls, fitness or anything that is currently available to modern players. The modern game is so far advanced in every area compared to the 50s or 60s, or even the 90s. It's so much faster now, time on the ball is far more limited. To be at the level of Messi and Ronaldo in this, the most advanced and fastest era ever, in football is ridiculous. The game is so far advanced in every area that it is probably harder to be elite now than it ever has been, in terms of what is required for fitness, diet, technical ability, mentally, physically. If you're the best now, then you're the best of all time imo.
I would also compare the 'best of their era' against the rest of their era and how far better than them they were. The gap between Messi and Ronaldo to the 3rd best player or the 4th etc, or how far better than other decent international players is probably bigger than in any other era.
Let's look at a recent one, say early to mid 2000s, you had Zidane probably the world's best player. But then very close to him, and debatable if not better, Ronaldinho, original Ronaldo, Henry, Del Piero, Rivaldo. Using Zidane as #1 he wasn't that far ahead of the rest.
Maradona was incredible, best of his era but was he miles better than somebody like Van Basten or Platini? Probably, yes. There is a good argument that Pele wasn't even the best player in the great Brazil sides. George Best for a spell was probably as good as Pele. Johan Cruyff right up there with him as well. He only ever played in Brazil and America, Brazil who didn't get a proper national league until 1970, then he went to the fledgling NASL. Pele was probably the first well marketed global player, but he didn't do anything in club football that compares to Best, Cruyff, Muller. The Brazil teams were packed with excellent players, and Pele benefits a lot from being the recognisable face of those teams.
Long post, but I think in terms of where they were within their era, and comparing that, I still would have Maradona top 5 ever, Pele probably not in my top 10. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo best two ever, almost inseparable. They leave everybody behind in terms of numbers, honours, personal achievements.
 
FootballFan said:
Just a better player, had it all.

I like Ronaldo, he has done well for himself, but to put him in the same category as a Maradona or a Pele is absurd IMO.

Pele was playing for Brazil when he was 16 years old, averaging a goal a game, winning World cups 3 times, could not only score but also drop deep and do the playmaker role, all this at a time where he was targeted to be hacked to bits.
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and he scored over 1000 goals !!!
 
Pele scored about 750 competitive goals, the whole 1000 goals thing is a myth. He scored many more in friendlies and exhibition matches but nobody has ever counted appearances or goals scored in a friendly towards their career stats.
 
sometime see people say "well Pele never played over here"

here's his record against the European Champions in the World Club Cup

Played 4 Scored 9
 
Cases can be made for all four players mentioned to be regarded as best ever but even though his stats or longevity don’t compare with the other 3 I’ll always say Maradona, purely down to what I witnessed when watching them play.

Pele and Messi didn’t or haven’t ever left their comfort zone, they were/are one club players who haven’t tested themselves outside of the environment they’ve know for most of their lives (I’m discounting Pele’s spell in the US). They were both surrounded by other world class players and played in some of the best teams of all-time.

The same can’t be said for Ronaldo or Maradona yet they still played at a level equal to or above Pele and Messi. What Maradona did in Italy should never be underestimated. He joined a club which had only ever won 2 Italian Cups in its history, an unfashionable club well away from the traditional northern heartland of Italian football. He joined at a time when Italian football was regarded as the best and most unforgiving in world football, Juventus including Platini and Boniek were European champions and the great AC team were emerging.

He transformed Napoli and led them to 5 major trophies in a 4 year spell including two titles. The Milan team of 89/90 was voted by World Soccer experts as the best club side ever, yet it was Maradona’s Napoli who won the Serie A title that year, beating Milan 3-0 on the way!

We can all name Pele’s team mates throughout his career and in years to come people will be able to name Ronaldo and Messi’s teammates no problem, they’re world class players in their own right. How many of Maradona’s teammates at Napoli and Argentina ‘86 can people name? A couple at most, they were nobody’s before becoming Maradona’s teammates in all honesty - that says a lot.
 
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Maradona was class got kicked from pillar to post when tackling was horrendous and was the focal point of the national teams success up there with messi n Ronaldo for me...still fukin cheat though
 
Sorry but you put Maradona, Pele, van Basten, Best, Zico etc with currant training and protection and they would stand head and shoulders above anyone
 
chunksafc said:
Bollox man, are you insinuating with current methods they wouldn't?
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I'm saying it's speculation to say what said. You can't know that. Do you think Best or Van Basten would score more than 40 goals a season for 10 consecutive years just because they had better pitches and could train better than they did then?
 
What A Waster said:
I'm saying it's speculation to say what said. You can't know that. Do you think Best or Van Basten would score more than 40 goals a season for 10 consecutive years just because they had better pitches and could train better than they did then?
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Best not so sure as had a self destruct button but Van Basten absolutely, he retired at 28 due the the lumps kicked out of him.

You made an excellent point earlier about it being v difficult to compare players of different eras, I think Maradona is the GOAT and you think it’s Messi/Ronaldo , it’s all about opinions on which we differ but you make yours very well.

What I do find strange is you don’t have Pele in your top 10 given you quote achievement and longevity as your defining features yet dismiss someone who won the World Cup 3 times, starting at the age of 17.

Anyway nice to have a thread not slagging off the owners or new manager.
 
Stortford said:
Best not so sure as had a self destruct button but Van Basten absolutely, he retired at 28 due the the lumps kicked out of him.

You made an excellent point earlier about it being v difficult to compare players of different eras, I think Maradona is the GOAT and you think it’s Messi/Ronaldo , it’s all about opinions on which we differ but you make yours very well.

What I do find strange is you don’t have Pele in your top 10 given you quote achievement and longevity as your defining features yet dismiss someone who won the World Cup 3 times, starting at the age of 17.

Anyway nice to have a thread not slagging off the owners or new manager.
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I think with Pele, it's the fact that a lot of his goals came in the equivalent to the Northumberland senior cup. Would be like Shearer banging in 8 against Morpeth Town then adding that to his total. Next round stick 5 past West Allotment etc.
Yes he has 3 world cups, but he was part of Brazilian teams loaded with superstars. He only played the opening game in 62 iirc before succumbing to injury , and they went on to win it without him. Sweden in 58, yes he was good, and in 70 as well.
I don't think he ever really dominated a tournament in the way Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradona did.
That and the fact that up until 1970 or 71, Brazil didn't have a national league. He was playing for a huge club against minnows from the region. Once the Brazilian league was national his goal ratio dropped to 1 in 3.
Then he went off to the NASL with all the other famous players out for an easy life
 
chunksafc said:
Sorry but you put Maradona, Pele, van Basten, Best, Zico etc with currant training and protection and they would stand head and shoulders above anyone
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They may well, but they'd also be playing against far superior defenders who have the benefit of everything the modern day player has.

Messi and Ronaldo are protected more than those mentioned in the past, but they're not playing against goat herders every week.
 
AC Mack said:
They may well, but they'd also be playing against far superior defenders who have the benefit of everything the modern day player has.

Messi and Ronaldo are protected more than those mentioned in the past, but they're not playing against goat herders every week.
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Neither were the players I mention, they payed against some of the best defenders ever to play the game
What A Waster said:
I think with Pele, it's the fact that a lot of his goals came in the equivalent to the Northumberland senior cup. Would be like Shearer banging in 8 against Morpeth Town then adding that to his total. Next round stick 5 past West Allotment etc.
Yes he has 3 world cups, but he was part of Brazilian teams loaded with superstars. He only played the opening game in 62 iirc before succumbing to injury , and they went on to win it without him. Sweden in 58, yes he was good, and in 70 as well.
I don't think he ever really dominated a tournament in the way Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradona did.
That and the fact that up until 1970 or 71, Brazil didn't have a national league. He was playing for a huge club against minnows from the region. Once the Brazilian league was national his goal ratio dropped to 1 in 3.
Then he went off to the NASL with all the other famous players out for an easy life
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Sorry but Pele was and is considered one of the greatest of all time, stats mean nothing, go and ask your dad what he was like
 

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