It’s time to get behind Chris Coleman

[Gideon Gungeon]

i'm backing the welsh lad on the basis that i can't be chewed on with replacing him with the shit we're likely to attract in the current predicament there mate. let's see how we're doing at the turn of the year there

 

[fyl2u]

Did it though? He only managed 3 1-0 wins with it and 2 of those involved us playing 2 strikers, something he later stopped doing. I don't think there was any justification for his continued use of that formation, it seemed to be more a case of him not wanting to concede he was wrong, you can often see the same thing from his substitutions, he doesn't seem to like having to change his initial game plan regardless of the situation.

Well, it's all about opinions I suppose. I don't see it that way, but if you do, fair enough.

 

[chriswallace85]

5-at-the-back was the first formation he tried that actually won us points. When we'd played a flat back 4 prior to that we'd been getting walked all over. I have no problem with him sticking with that formation. Yes we picked up a few results after we were forced to go 4 at the back afterwards, but to suggest that was the sole reason for picking up those results is a logical fallacy that debaters and philosophers call post hoc ergo propter hoc - literally translated "after this therefore because of this" - it doesn't take into account that other factors were also in play.

The same was happening with 5 at the back most weeks. There were times we didn't even have the personnel available to go with that formation and he'd play Billy Jones as a third centre back man. It's criminal. I don't want to get into a debate over how much you've actually watched us this season, but we were constantly at sea with that formation and looked like conceding every time the opposition attacked. It was more often than not a back 3 rather than a back 5, and our centre halves were all over the place.

 

[flanny1]

i'm backing the welsh lad on the basis that i can't be chewed on with replacing him with the shit we're likely to attract in the current predicament there mate. let's see how we're doing at the turn of the year there

Are you Martin Bain?

 

[fyl2u]

The same was happening with 5 at the back most weeks. There were times we didn't even have the personnel available to go with that formation and he'd play Billy Jones as a third centre back man. It's criminal. I don't want to get into a debate over how much you've actually watched us this season, but we were constantly at sea with that formation and looked like conceding every time the opposition attacked. It was more often than not a back 3 rather than a back 5, and our centre halves were all over the place.

I think I've watched all the matches that have been possible to watch online this season, and listened to the commentary on the rest of them.

I agree the Billy Jones as a centre-back thing seemed... a bit weird to say the least. Again though, we don't see what happens in training. Supposedly they've been concentrating on defensive drills almost exclusively, so perhaps Jones was showing some sort of aptitude for it in training? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

I think the point of the formation is that when you're attacking you can go 3 or 4 at the back (depending on whether you want the opposite full-back to also attack or you want him to stay back for cover and slide the other 3 across to fill in the space left by the attacking full-back), giving you extra players further up the field. The problems arise when the full back who's attacking doesn't track back again quickly enough after we lose the ball. I noticed Billy Jones failing at that on Saturday, which disappointed me as I've defended him in the past when he's received stick that I felt had been undeserved. I think he already had one foot out the door.

I don't have a problem with the concept of the formation. I think it can work with the right players doing the right things, but unfortunately we've not always seen all of our players doing the right things regardless of which formation we've played.

 

[gipetto]

Not sure I agree, sometimes a good manager can make the difference; drilling the players and/or playing a formation that puts less pressure on the defense.

BSA proved it can be done, even cancelling a holiday to drill the players. We went from having a leaky defense that couldn’t defend set pieces to a solid one that looked comfortable defending set pieces. Not saying Coleman could have done the same, just that I think he could have done a lot better.

You're forgetting he brought in a vibrant Kone and we had Kirschoff who sat in front of the defence alongside M'Vila. These three all contributed to our successful end of the season.

 

[flanny1]

You're forgetting he brought in a vibrant Kone and we had Kirschoff who sat in front of the defence alongside M'Vila. These three all contributed to our successful end of the season.

I agree and I conceded I wasn't expecting him to do the same, but even players like Yedlin and Van Aanholt improved dramatically as well us being more organised and comfortable at set pieces. With regard to set pieces, being well drilled seems to be the main difference, worse teams can usually defend against better teams went their players are properly organised, we don't look like we have a clue.

 

[chriswallace85]

I think I've watched all the matches that have been possible to watch online this season, and listened to the commentary on the rest of them.

I agree the Billy Jones as a centre-back thing seemed... a bit weird to say the least. Again though, we don't see what happens in training. Supposedly they've been concentrating on defensive drills almost exclusively, so perhaps Jones was showing some sort of aptitude for it in training? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

I think the point of the formation is that when you're attacking you can go 3 or 4 at the back (depending on whether you want the opposite full-back to also attack or you want him to stay back for cover and slide the other 3 across to fill in the space left by the attacking full-back), giving you extra players further up the field. The problems arise when the full back who's attacking doesn't track back again quickly enough after we lose the ball. I noticed Billy Jones failing at that on Saturday, which disappointed me as I've defended him in the past when he's received stick that I felt had been undeserved. I think he already had one foot out the door.

I don't have a problem with the concept of the formation. I think it can work with the right players doing the right things, but unfortunately we've not always seen all of our players doing the right things regardless of which formation we've played.

That's been Billy Jones to a tee for the past four years.

I get the formation. It was just blatantly obvious to a blind man on a galloping hoss that the players didn't.

I get what you're saying about what might go on in training and there being other reasons unknown to us why certain players get a game. There's times I've quetioned a team sheet myself but then thought well actually what else is there, but I think you're making excuses for the bloke to be honest. Look at the timing of some of his substitutions. George Honeyman blowing out of his arse on 70 minutes giving the ball away and yet playing the full 90. Joel Asoro or Lualua coming on for 5 minutes. In fact, what was the point in even bringing Lualua to the club.

 

[WHD]

In fact, what was the point in even bringing Lualua to the club.

He had to get bodies in, he had no other choice.

Apparently.

 

[fyl2u]

That's been Billy Jones to a tee for the past four years.

I get the formation. It was just blatantly obvious to a blind man on a galloping hoss that the players didn't.

I get what you're saying about what might go on in training and there being other reasons unknown to us why certain players get a game. There's times I've quetioned a team sheet myself but then thought well actually what else is there, but I think you're making excuses for the bloke to be honest. Look at the timing of some of his substitutions. George Honeyman blowing out of his arse on 70 minutes giving the ball away and yet playing the full 90. Joel Asoro or Lualua coming on for 5 minutes. In fact, what was the point in even bringing Lualua to the club.

Nicely put. I admit, it certainly seemed that way at times. I can only assume that in training they looked like they "got it" and then it all went out the window on matchday.

I'm not saying that any of the suggestions I've made to explain his decisions are necessarily true, I'm just saying there are all manner of things that we fans don't know about that happen from day to day behind the scenes at the club that can lead to these decisions. We might not understand the reasons for them, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad decisions.

Maybe if one of the other coaches came out and said "I've no idea why he did that, the weirdo. The rest of the coaches were screaming at him to make the substitution earlier" then it would be a better indication. The coach probably wouldn't keep his job for long afterwards, like.

Lualua, who knows. Could be a hindsight thing for us - he hasn't played much and has been ineffective when he has played, therefore it was a bad decision to sign him. Then again, maybe more was expected of him and he hasn't been trying as hard as we hoped, or maybe he was bought for backup in case of injury and we just haven't needed him...

 

[brisbanemackem]

Coleman win percentage 18.5%

Ricky Sbragia 23.7%

 

[ftm1974]

This squad is not easily good enough to avoid what has happened. Without Grabban we have no goalscorer - we also have no goalie. How on earth does that make this squad good enough to easily survive? Two key positions - scoring goals and saving goals and we must have the worst in the division. Fair enough have a go at Coleman for his formations etc. but do not talk up this squad as better than it is just to suit your argument. This squad is absolutely appalling. Last time we went down to the 3rd division we had a far better squad - we had players who had great records of scoring goals but under performed. Who in this squad should be scoring our goals - Fletcher? Maja? Lua Lua? Really? Who in this squad is a competent goalie?

Under most criteria this squad is appalling.
However, you’re underestimating how unbelievably shite the bottom 5-6 clubs are in this league. There is no way our squad’s overall ability is inferior to the worst 3 in the league.

 

[Pusa]

He’s been every bit as poor as Grayson. It’s his job to improve players and he hasn’t done it so far.

Annoying when people say "his hands were tied." They may have been in terms of transfers, but not in terms of tactics, strategy, psychology, training, morale-building, etc.

He would make a successful pundit. No way is he a manager.

The memory of Fulham players warming up on exercise bikes on the touchline leads everyone to believe that he is a young, innovative manager. But he's not. His record demonstrates that.

I don't think we can afford to sack him though. Hopefully he quits for another job and we can all move forward.

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

Under most criteria this squad is appalling.
However, you’re underestimating how unbelievably shite the bottom 5-6 clubs are in this league. There is no way our squad’s overall ability is inferior to the worst 3 in the league.

I disagree - Burton have better goalscorers in their squad by quite a way than Fletcher and Maja, they also have better keepers - Bolton are on a massive slide cos they got rid of their goalscorer in Madine - they will end up going down because of that. If we'd kept Grabban we would be safe, in my opinion.

 

[The Underdog]

What if you don't think they're as shite as those posters will have you believe? What if you think that despite there being an obvious lack in quality, they're still on par with a lot of players in the division. What if you think that maybe with a little better organisation and instruction, as a collective the team could and really should have been better than the sum of it's parts?

For me, O'Shea is not shite. Cattermole is not shite. Kone is not shite. Oviedo, McNair, Gibson, Matthews, Asoro, McGeady, maybe even McManaman and Gooch are not shite. They're not all of them great either but there are players in there. Then you have the likes of Honeyman, Love, Robson, Vaughan who are at least going to give you some effort.

To me, there's at least a semblance of a team there, and has been all season. On occasion it's even proven results aren't beyond us in this division. So you have to question the selections, the formations, the tactics, the substitutions, and the then training, the team talks and everything that goes with it. Grayson was not good enough, and Coleman has not been good enough. Five wins in 28 games at this level is not good enough for Sunderland AFC. Guiding Sunderland AFC to League 1 after 30 games in charge is not good enough. In fact it's fuckin' despicable. The man should be vilified and chased from the club.

It’s not as cut and dry as this though is it? You mention those players and being ‘not shite’ but football isn’t just about technical ability is it? Far from it infact. Basing our side on technical ability they still aren’t very good - id say bottom eight of the championship. But In terms of application, attitude, desire and professionalism as a footballer then we aren’t just the worst in this league but one of the worst in the entire country!

Seasoned pros just showing complete and utter disregard and contempt as their duty as professional sportsmen. The drinking culture and constant troubles away from football are just pathetic. Compare that to Jermain Defoe; eats right, trains right, looks after himself, doesn’t drink, doesn’t (to my knowledge) get into bother away from the pitch (hardly classing shafting someone’s lass as bother). I’ll use another example, look at West Brom this year. After finishing 10th last year and flirting with Europe at times during the season are now rock bottom and been a disgrace. Players getting pissed up on mid season breaks and getting into bother. You’d say they have a better side than certainly the three promoted teams who went up and there hasn’t been a great change in personnel there either so was that Pulis’ fault who succeeded last year? Or is it the attitude of the players?

The ethos of our entire club absolute stinks and has done for years. Thinking they can put a shift in in April to scrape survival and that’s enough. Well it’s finally catching us all up and we’re being found out by everybody. Until that changes, where coming to Sunderland isn’t just a joy ride on a huge wage with a lack of professionalism, then not a great deal will change with our fortunes.

Coleman can only shuffle these attitudes around so much. Yeah he can be blamed for playing a full back at centre half to persist with his formation on occasions and a few other things, and of course has played a part in us going down but until the crux of the problem is sorted nobody will get much out of us on the pitch.

 

[Deleted member 40857]

The ambivalence of his recent statements only serves to illustrate the complete uncertainty in and around the club. How can any manager,regardless of ability,work within such an atrocious set up?

He’s acknowledged his mistakes,and been quite honest about them,but the circumstances he’s been working under are probably worse than even he imagined. The whole place needs gutting and starting again,and it’s a huge task this time round:vastly different from our 80’s third tier relegation.

 

[Perryqhill]

I’d stick with him as id hope he has identified what we need for next season from our squad which gives him a head start on anyone else but all this bollocks about hands being tied doesn’t wash mind. He’s been every bit as poor as Grayson. It’s his job to improve players and he hasn’t done it so far.

Whilst results are probably split between the two, you cannot deny the stone wall fact that Grayson was allowed to spend some (any) money at a time players were available and he got his top target in McGeady and probably one or two others (like Browning and Vaughan who had previously played for him) and a decent contribution towards Grabban's wage. Some players from PL clubs on decent wages, which is vastly different from bringing several players who were just kids in from PL clubs, a loan from Cardiff and Lua Lua, whilst being turned down by an estimated 10+ players because of the car crash that was unfolding and a complete lack of funds. What Coleman was allowed to do was vastly restricted in comparison. I'm sure even the most contrary fucker on the board can see that.

 

[englishman abroad]

His post match interviews were embarrassing, all about him, his future, his mistakes, etc. Frankly not fussed if he fucks off.

 

[Mrjardine]

Whilst results are probably split between the two, you cannot deny the stone wall fact that Grayson was allowed to spend some (any) money at a time players were available and he got his top target in McGeady and probably one or two others (like Browning and Vaughan who had previously played for him) and a decent contribution towards Grabban's wage. Some players from PL clubs on decent wages, which is vastly different from bringing several players who were just kids in from PL clubs, a loan from Cardiff and Lua Lua, whilst being turned down by an estimated 10+ players because of the car crash that was unfolding and a complete lack of funds. What Coleman was allowed to do was vastly restricted in comparison. I'm sure even the most contrary fucker on the board can see that.

Grayson had next to fuck all to spend man but didn’t do enough with what he had. Jesus wept he paid the same for James Vaughan as we paid for Don Goodman 25 year ago!!!
Coleman didn’t improve any of our squad and actually managed to find a way to leave out our most productive player (McGeady) for a long spell.
Now as I’ve said I’d stick with him as id hope he learnt what he needs to do with squad if given a summer to put some sort of stamp on it. So far he’s been dreadful it’s as simple as that.

 

[chriswallace85]

It’s not as cut and dry as this though is it? You mention those players and being ‘not shite’ but football isn’t just about technical ability is it? Far from it infact. Basing our side on technical ability they still aren’t very good - id say bottom eight of the championship. But In terms of application, attitude, desire and professionalism as a footballer then we aren’t just the worst in this league but one of the worst in the entire country!

Seasoned pros just showing complete and utter disregard and contempt as their duty as professional sportsmen. The drinking culture and constant troubles away from football are just pathetic. Compare that to Jermain Defoe; eats right, trains right, looks after himself, doesn’t drink, doesn’t (to my knowledge) get into bother away from the pitch (hardly classing shafting someone’s lass as bother). I’ll use another example, look at West Brom this year. After finishing 10th last year and flirting with Europe at times during the season are now rock bottom and been a disgrace. Players getting pissed up on mid season breaks and getting into bother. You’d say they have a better side than certainly the three promoted teams who went up and there hasn’t been a great change in personnel there either so was that Pulis’ fault who succeeded last year? Or is it the attitude of the players?

That didn't stop Jermain Defoe downing tools in February, 'cos let's be honest, he wasn't himself after that Palace game and England came calling.

Gibson obviously has his demons, but I don't see any other seasoned pros "showing complete and utter disregard and contempt". This rotten core nonsense is just that in my opinion. O'Shea and Cattermole haven't had great seasons by any stretch of the imagination but I've seen none of what you mention from either of them. The situation at West Brom has nothing to do with us at all.