I'm Not Sorry Lads , I'd take Poyet or Di Canio back in a heartbeat

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rubberface said:
You've contradicted yourself with your last 2 statements. Unbelievable.
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You obviously cannot finish the sentence can you? O'Shea has been at Sunderland for 6 seasons playing 208 games in the process. What do you think the odds are on any player 'admitting' they didn't give 100% every single game? Probably 100%. Another philosophical standpoint would be to consider poor performance as below a player's acknowledged optimum standard and therefore below 100% for a variety of reasons including physical or psychological, social or other reasons.

At the end of the day, it seems you are not going to acknowledge that no player could possibly give 100% effort in every game year after year in every season.
 
bagpiperay said:
You obviously cannot finish the sentence can you? O'Shea has been at Sunderland for 6 seasons playing 208 games in the process. What do you think the odds are on any player 'admitting' they didn't give 100% every single game? Probably 100%. Another philosophical standpoint would be to consider poor performance as below a player's acknowledged optimum standard and therefore below 100% for a variety of reasons including physical or psychological, social or other reasons.

At the end of the day, it seems you are not going to acknowledge that no player could possibly give 100% effort in every game year after year in every season.
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So straight down the line, are you saying O'shea never gave 100% every game? Took you a while to look stats up by the way. What point are you trying to get across exactly?
 
rubberface said:
So straight down the line, are you saying O'shea never gave 100% every game? Took you a while to look stats up by the way. What point are you trying to get across exactly?
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I love stats and I look them up mostly every day. They are so interesting if you understand the nature of statistics. I might consider the probability that a player gives 100% effort every single time he plays a game. Then I'd have to define terms such as 'effort' and consider substitute appearances, playing with an injury and so on. There is a guy in the Times, Daniel Finkelstein who has been writing a column, the Fink Tank, in the Saturday edition of The Times for several years. In it, he uses statistical analysis and probability theory to explode some of the myths around the “confirmed wisdom” of commentators’ favourite football sayings. For example, is it really true that teams are more vulnerable when they are winning 2-0 than 1-0? Is conceding a goal just before half time really so significant to the end result?

I might write to him to answer the very question we are discussing about the probability of players always giving 100% effort in games, regardless of age, time and outcome. Now that would make an interesting read would it not?
 
bagpiperay said:
I love stats and I look them up mostly every day. They are so interesting if you understand the nature of statistics. I might consider the probability that a player gives 100% effort every single time he plays a game. Then I'd have to define terms such as 'effort' and consider substitute appearances, playing with an injury and so on. There is a guy in the Times, Daniel Finkelstein who has been writing a column, the Fink Tank, in the Saturday edition of The Times for several years. In it, he uses statistical analysis and probability theory to explode some of the myths around the “confirmed wisdom” of commentators’ favourite football sayings. For example, is it really true that teams are more vulnerable when they are winning 2-0 than 1-0? Is conceding a goal just before half time really so significant to the end result?

I might write to him to answer the very question we are discussing about the probability of players always giving 100% effort in games, regardless of age, time and outcome. Now that would make an interesting read would it not?
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Go for it.

But his answer may well be that it is a ridiculous question to ask a statistician because while it is possible to make an objective assessment as to how many games a team lost a two goal lead, or lost a match when conceding a goal before half time, it is impossible for a statistician to make an objective assessment as to whether John O'Shea was giving 100% in every game.

Meanwhile, I know for a fact that he is 36, and my own eyes witnessed him being a part of many our worst capitulations in recent years - the 6-1 at Villa, the 3-1 at Palace, the 3-0 at WBA, the 4-0 at Swansea, the 8-0 at Southampton, the 4-0 at home to Villa, the 1-4 at home to Palace, the 4-1 at Spurs, the 4-1 at home to Arsenal, the 4-1 at Burnley. the 0-4 against Southampton, and the 5-1 at Chelsea.
 
bagpiperay said:
I love stats and I look them up mostly every day. They are so interesting if you understand the nature of statistics. I might consider the probability that a player gives 100% effort every single time he plays a game. Then I'd have to define terms such as 'effort' and consider substitute appearances, playing with an injury and so on. There is a guy in the Times, Daniel Finkelstein who has been writing a column, the Fink Tank, in the Saturday edition of The Times for several years. In it, he uses statistical analysis and probability theory to explode some of the myths around the “confirmed wisdom” of commentators’ favourite football sayings. For example, is it really true that teams are more vulnerable when they are winning 2-0 than 1-0? Is conceding a goal just before half time really so significant to the end result?

I might write to him to answer the very question we are discussing about the probability of players always giving 100% effort in games, regardless of age, time and outcome. Now that would make an interesting read would it not?
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...so basically you can't back up your claim that O'Shea has not gave 100!% every game?..... Thought not.

Lanchesterredandwhite said:
Go for it.

But his answer may well be that it is a ridiculous question to ask a statistician because while it is possible to make an objective assessment as to how many games a team lost a two goal lead, or lost a match when conceding a goal before half time, it is impossible for a statistician to make an objective assessment as to whether John O'Shea was giving 100% in every game.

Meanwhile, I know for a fact that he is 36, and my own eyes witnessed him being a part of many our worst capitulations in recent years - the 6-1 at Villa, the 3-1 at Palace, the 3-0 at WBA, the 4-0 at Swansea, the 8-0 at Southampton, the 4-0 at home to Villa, the 1-4 at home to Palace, the 4-1 at Spurs, the 4-1 at home to Arsenal, the 4-1 at Burnley. the 0-4 against Southampton, and the 5-1 at Chelsea.
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Were there not another 10 men in our colours alongside him?
 
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Lanchesterredandwhite said:
Go for it.

But his answer may well be that it is a ridiculous question to ask a statistician because while it is possible to make an objective assessment as to how many games a team lost a two goal lead, or lost a match when conceding a goal before half time, it is impossible for a statistician to make an objective assessment as to whether John O'Shea was giving 100% in every game.

Meanwhile, I know for a fact that he is 36, and my own eyes witnessed him being a part of many our worst capitulations in recent years - the 6-1 at Villa, the 3-1 at Palace, the 3-0 at WBA, the 4-0 at Swansea, the 8-0 at Southampton, the 4-0 at home to Villa, the 1-4 at home to Palace, the 4-1 at Spurs, the 4-1 at home to Arsenal, the 4-1 at Burnley. the 0-4 against Southampton, and the 5-1 at Chelsea.
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Yes O'Shea played a significant part in those games and has to shoulder some of the responsibility too in my view. If those were his 'best' efforts, then all the more reason to let him go. We need some time younger, exciting, more athletic players for the future and not an error prone player beyond his sell by date.

As far as statistics is concerned, there are quantitative and descriptive of course. I just wonder whether the very clever Daniel Finkelstein could produce a formula for such a question though I doubt it.

rubberface said:
...so basically you can't back up your claim that O'Shea has not gave 100!% every game?..... Thought not.


Were there not another 10 men in our colours alongside him?
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By your apparent definition of 'effort', it would seem every player in every game could be considered to have given maximum effort as that is not related to performance or outcome e.g. O'Shea may have played his worst game, statistically, since signing fir us but he may have tried his best in that game. For anyone to state so categorically that he always gave 100% is preposterous as there is no evidence for this assertion whatsoever. My opinion is that O'Shea often has performed below par and our defensive frailties often involving O'Shea, as ably illustrated by Lanchesterrefandwhite in recent seasons, is evidence of this.
 
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I thought PDC was class tbh, a breath of fresh air, upfront and passionate like a fan would be, but such a left field attitude it was probably never going to work with 'top pro's' who thought they knew better. That said did anyone read the John Bostock interview in the Mail yesterday? Hopefully this is the bit about Di Canio....

'I could play under any manager in the world now because I played under Paolo Di Canio,' laughed Bostock. 'I didn't know people like that actually existed in the game! If we lost, we would be in on a Sunday to watch the 90 minutes. But a Di Canio 90 minutes is maybe two and a half hours.

'Smash the screen when he sees you do something bad, pause it, question you, smash the screen again. But if you hit a TV screen really hard that part of the screen won't work any more.

'So he would keep smashing it and in the end there would be no part of the screen that you could actually see the game on any more. Just a tiny corner.

'Before a game I like to relax so I would have some music on and maybe just be moving a little bit as I put my shinpads on. He saw me and just went crazy, "You are dancing before we go to war? If you want to do that, go and dance in the toilet!".

'His team talks were like, "We are going to grab this serpent by the neck, we're going to strangle it". We did get results to be fair. We were so fit. He trained us like dogs. Coming under someone like that and seeing that mindset was incredible. I haven't met anyone like it since.'



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...John-Bostock-making-France.html#ixzz4jfmUQ400
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 
If you pull out of a challenge of don't jump for a header then you haven't given 100%.I thought only ex-pro's came out with shit excuses such as lack of confidence and injuries for players not giving their best.
 
Kid Galahad said:
I thought PDC was class tbh, a breath of fresh air, upfront and passionate like a fan would be, but such a left field attitude it was probably never going to work with 'top pro's' who thought they knew better. That said did anyone read the John Bostock interview in the Mail yesterday? Hopefully this is the bit about Di Canio....

'I could play under any manager in the world now because I played under Paolo Di Canio,' laughed Bostock. 'I didn't know people like that actually existed in the game! If we lost, we would be in on a Sunday to watch the 90 minutes. But a Di Canio 90 minutes is maybe two and a half hours.

'Smash the screen when he sees you do something bad, pause it, question you, smash the screen again. But if you hit a TV screen really hard that part of the screen won't work any more.

'So he would keep smashing it and in the end there would be no part of the screen that you could actually see the game on any more. Just a tiny corner.

'Before a game I like to relax so I would have some music on and maybe just be moving a little bit as I put my shinpads on. He saw me and just went crazy, "You are dancing before we go to war? If you want to do that, go and dance in the toilet!".

'His team talks were like, "We are going to grab this serpent by the neck, we're going to strangle it". We did get results to be fair. We were so fit. He trained us like dogs. Coming under someone like that and seeing that mindset was incredible. I haven't met anyone like it since.'



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...John-Bostock-making-France.html#ixzz4jfmUQ400
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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And what did we see with Moyes? He stood the whole of the last game with his hands in his pockets or similar not giving a toss, not directing the play, not demanding of his players in their abject performance. I've seen more passion in my grannie and she's been dead fir more years than I care to mention.
 
bagpiperay said:
And what did we see with Moyes? He stood the whole of the last game with his hands in his pockets or similar not giving a toss, not directing the play, not demanding of his players in their abject performance. I've seen more passion in my grannie and she's been dead fir more years than I care to mention.
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I loved him but not sure I'd like to work for him mind, that said as Bostock mentioned they were fit as fleas (as was Di Canio, probably still is!) and apart from when Keano was in charge (another demanding figure) we haven't ever looked fitter than our opposition, fitness should be the first requirement of a professional athlete and the attitude of our players over the years to it has been disappointing to say the least, any little edge you can get over your rivals should be taken seriously, especially when you are lacking in skill and ability.
 
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