Follow on redundancy questions



Does your bank account package come with legal advice if needed?

Mine did which was handy a few years back and I was allowed up to 50k for costs.

Might be worth checking with your bank.
 
Goat Eyes said:
He did (in their eyes) get offered a suitable replacement role so that changes things.

Aside from the legalities I just don’t know how your manager / managers manager / whoever can sleep sound at night knowing they’ve not only deprived a loyal, hardworking ‘ex’-member of staff of not only their job but also the service and security they had earned through the length of service you’d completed.

I’ve been made redundant and been that person making people redundant (it is a fairly inevitable outcome in some industries today) and I felt much better about the whole thing when I knew everyone had been given the same opportunities and the correct payout as per the company policy which I fought for (didn’t have to too much) each and every time.

Disgusting behaviour from those involved to be fair regardless of personal feeling towards you or loyalty to the employer. It’s an ethical issue which I hope they become a victim of themselves one day.
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Has he actually handed in a formal resignation? If so why are they making him redundant in their own words? They seem ambiguous at best. But ultimately redundancy is just that. If he refuses to take the new role it's really frustration of contract. Something quite different.
 
MonkeyLove said:
Has he actually handed in a formal resignation? If so why are they making him redundant in their own words? They seem ambiguous at best. But ultimately redundancy is just that. If he refuses to take the new role it's really frustration of contract. Something quite different.
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My knowledge of redundancy is that you are put at risk at which point two options are opened up.

1. They’ll offer you suitable alternative employment
2. They’ll offer you a severance

As he refused option 1 they aren’t then obliged to go to option 2.

If no suitable employment can be found they must go to option 2.

I haven’t got a clue what frustration of contract means.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2793821/Redundancy-10-things-everyone-should-know.html
 
Goat Eyes said:
My knowledge of redundancy is that you are put at risk at which point two options are opened up.

1. They’ll offer you suitable alternative employment
2. They’ll offer you a severance

As he refused option 1 they aren’t then obliged to go to option 2.

If no suitable employment can be found they must go to option 2.

I haven’t got a clue what frustration of contract means.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2793821/Redundancy-10-things-everyone-should-know.html
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And that' fine but has he actually formally declined number 1. In writing. The only way he can do that is resign. They can' say they are making him redundant he can resign, be dismissed or they can make him redundant. The latter invokes redundancy law.
 
MonkeyLove said:
And that' fine but has he actually formally declined number 1. In writing. The only way he can do that is resign. They can' say they are making him redundant he can resign, be dismissed or they can make him redundant. The latter invokes redundancy law.
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They are dismissing him on the grounds that his role is redundant and he has refused SAE. He doesn't need to resign, they are terminating his contract on those grounds.

And the OP previously advised that he had rejected the SAE.
 
kossoff said:
They are dismissing him on the grounds that his role is redundant and he has refused SAE. He doesn't need to resign, they are terminating his contract on those grounds.

And the OP previously advised that he had rejected the SAE.
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So if it' redundancy surely he is eligible for a package?
 
MonkeyLove said:
So if it' redundancy surely he is eligible for a package?
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No. A role becomes redundant, not the person. And in the case of a role being made redundant/removed, if the employers see fit, they will offer a suitable alternative role. If the person who has lost their role decides to refuse this they can be dismissed on the grounds that they are refusing SAE.

There is no automatic right to a payout if a role is made redundant. It appears that the OP's employers feel/are bluffing that they have taken the right approach in this case.
 
The question iirc in this case is whether the alternative role was suitable. The company say it is, he’s saying it’s not.

Someone independent need to look at th case and rule whether the role is suitable or not, surely? I bought the Union would have but they seem to be twats. Hence acas or Cab maybe? What other options are available?
 
sadders said:
Just as a follow up.

I had a formal meeting today where I was told that I was being dismissed on the grounds of redundancy (as expected). They have allowed me to not serve my full notice so leave on 22nd of next month. No package offered.

Realistically there is no point in going to tribunal as I am told proving that 'suitable alternative employment' is not suitable is difficult so union and no win no fee solicitors wont touch me. No point self representing and I cant afford to pay for a solicitor on what would be an expensive gamble.

I was told by HR during the meeting that I could appeal their decision within 15 days of the meeting. It was pointed out that this would be overseen by an independent person and is mainly about points of order on the consultation process. I believe they followed the process to the letter. The only issue I have is my belief that the suitable alternative employment was not suitable. Is this something that I should take to appeal or is appeal the wrong process to go to? If its the latter I will just leave it and move on.
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Have you actualy spoken to any no win no fee solicitors?

Don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be giving up without actually taking any of the better advice you've received.
 
Edinburgh Black Cat said:
Have you actualy spoken to any no win no fee solicitors?

Don't take this the wrong way but you seem to be giving up without actually taking any of the better advice you've received.
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I’ve had both paid for advice and no win no fee advice. Both say it’s 50/50 at tribunal so I’d given up. It’s just that at the formal meeting they mentioned appeal. I don’t know how appeal differs from tribunal.
 
sadders said:
I’ve had both paid for advice and no win no fee advice. Both say it’s 50/50 at tribunal so I’d given up. It’s just that at the formal meeting they mentioned appeal. I don’t know how appeal differs from tribunal.
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You could try an appeal on the basis that they have procedurally erred in determining that the offer was one of SAE. Long shot, but it seems low risk ie no costs consequences. It’s what I would do.

@sadders its not my area but my impression is it’s a very high bar for an employer to prove it’s SAE. Don’t give up yet. Do the appeal. Focus on why it’s not suitable and how they have got it procedurally wrong to have thought it such, because if they had applied themselves to it ina reasonable manner they could not have so concluded.
 
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janiep said:
You could try an appeal on the basis that they have procedurally erred in determining that the offer was one of SAE. Long shot, but it seems low risk ie no costs consequences. It’s what I would do.

@sadders its not my area but my impression is it’s a very high bar for an employer to prove it’s SAE. Don’t give up yet. Do the appeal. Focus on why it’s not suitable and how they have got it procedurally wrong to have thought it such, because if they had applied themselves to it ina reasonable manner they could not have so concluded.
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Could you ask the union to help you with the appeal?

Which union is it, btw?
 
HellsBells said:
Could you ask the union to help you with the appeal?

Which union is it, btw?
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Yes he can ask and they should help. However, the tactics I’m suggesting are working an angle a little bit and it depends on the energy and quality of the rep if they’d do it - to be fair they might. If not, and if @sadders can chuck a little bit more money at it, I’d go to an employment barrister (not solicitor) and ask them to do it.
 
janiep said:
Yes he can ask and they should help. However, the tactics I’m suggesting are working an angle a little bit and it depends on the energy and quality of the rep if they’d do it - to be fair they might. If not, and if @sadders can chuck a little bit more money at it, I’d go to an employment barrister (not solicitor) and ask them to do it.
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A little more money, they’ll want a grand just to accept your phone call. :lol:

Honestly, instead of asking on here for advice you should use the CIPD website / forum (let me know if you need a member login) as you’ll get advice on employment law from HR managers and directors instead of us.

They will then advise you on whether you were offered SAE, if it’s a definite either way you know where to go and if it’s grey you have a choice.

I suspect the alternative employment was suitable as per the trusts criteria hence them proceeding how they did.

If it wasn’t then you absolutely have a claim. Can you see their SAE criteria? The .gov website is very vague.
 
Goat Eyes said:
A little more money, they’ll want a grand just to accept your phone call. :lol:

Honestly, instead of asking on here for advice you should use the CIPD website / forum (let me know if you need a member login) as you’ll get advice on employment law from HR managers and directors instead of us.

They will then advise you on whether you were offered SAE, if it’s a definite either way you know where to go and if it’s grey you have a choice.

I suspect the alternative employment was suitable as per the trusts criteria hence them proceeding how they did.

If it wasn’t then you absolutely have a claim. Can you see their SAE criteria? The .gov website is very vague.
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The CIPD website is a very good shout. But they’ll lean towards the employers, no?
 

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