England's batting dilemmas

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Steak Pie said:
Yeah, I know what you were saying with Pope. If there was a natural number 3 putting his hands up then fine (Livingstone is done for the season with his thumb), but I can't see one anywhere. Jennings has played some superb innings for Lancs this year but just can't seem make the step up, he's running out of chances.

For the last couple of years we've had the 6/7/8 powerhouse of Ben/Jonny/Modern to bail the top order out, but now that's gone it's just highlighting the problems. I'd be tempted to restore it (injury notwithstanding).
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Pulling up trees at the moment, get him back - outstanding cricketer.

Also think bringing Buttler back has added an unnecessary complication. At test level, Stokes and Ali are better batters. And Woakes.

We need a total overhaul. I'd pick Gubbins and Burns for the next two tests, drop Root to four, Pope to five, bring in Ali at seven, give Buttler the gloves at eight and tell him to tee-off regardless of the situation (ok, maybe not if its a rearguard acton, but you get the picture: simplify the game for him), Woakes at nine. If that doesn't get runs somewhere well, then I'm stumped (though on form Stokes would probably be down at nine!!).

Long-term, would be telling Bairstow to get in some nets appropriate for an opening batsman - to replace Cook (or one of the other two if they look completely out of shorts and/or Cook rediscovers himself). I'd also be getting Pope to wicketkeeping practice - I just don't think Buttler has it at this level, but he can see out the series - and ready Clarke to come into the middle order.

So conceivably it could be this for the winter:

Gubbins/Cook
Bairstow
Burns
Root
Clarke
Pope (*)
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

God knows who the second spinner would be to come in for Woakes on turning surfaces, Rashid bowls too many bad balls, Leach not enough threatening ones.
 


I think the most radical thing we could do is drop Cook. As much as I don't really want it to happen and think it would be a shame for his career to end like that, he's just not getting runs, is getting starts and getting out, looks very unsure and is dropping catches regularly now.

The opening positions are so important as they typically set the tone for what is to follow: bat well and the team is usually on top; fail and the rest of the side is under pressure and set up to struggle, as we keep seeing.

I think Roy & Hales, and Roy & Bairstow in the ODI side show the value of having an opening partnership who work well together, consistently. It may be that Cook just isn't going to find another partner at this level now, for whatever reason, and so we'd be better off trying to find a fresh pair. Who the hell they might be I don't know, but that's what the selectors are paid for I suppose.
 
They were on about Bell last night on SKY.

It might have to be Bell, otherwise we're bringing in failures and/or new lads.
 
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Comeback_Kenwyne said:
Pulling up trees at the moment, get him back - outstanding cricketer.

Also think bringing Buttler back has added an unnecessary complication. At test level, Stokes and Ali are better batters. And Woakes.

We need a total overhaul. I'd pick Gubbins and Burns for the next two tests, drop Root to four, Pope to five, bring in Ali at seven, give Buttler the gloves at eight and tell him to tee-off regardless of the situation (ok, maybe not if its a rearguard acton, but you get the picture: simplify the game for him), Woakes at nine. If that doesn't get runs somewhere well, then I'm stumped (though on form Stokes would probably be down at nine!!).

Long-term, would be telling Bairstow to get in some nets appropriate for an opening batsman - to replace Cook (or one of the other two if they look completely out of shorts and/or Cook rediscovers himself). I'd also be getting Pope to wicketkeeping practice - I just don't think Buttler has it at this level, but he can see out the series - and ready Clarke to come into the middle order.

So conceivably it could be this for the winter:

Gubbins/Cook
Bairstow
Burns
Root
Clarke
Pope (*)
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

God knows who the second spinner would be to come in for Woakes on turning surfaces, Rashid bowls too many bad balls, Leach not enough threatening ones.
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I don't have much against the individuals but I do have an issue with playing players out of position. Opening is a specialist position and given the choice I'd play specialist openers a 1,2 and 3 - and that's a testament to our batting fragility.

Bairstow is not an opener no matter how much he practices. Nor is Gubbins. Burns is a good pick imho but I'd turn the country upside down to find another opener. If we can't find proper openers it's a strong indication that County Cricket is f*cked.

re: Leach. He's good on turning pitches as his record at Taunton shows. He's also a SLA - good to have one.
 
The fact is we're short all the way through.
The top order batting situation is chronic, and it'll not be long before the lack of 2 front line strike bowlers will be a huge issue when Anderson and Broad are gone.
There doesn't appear to be anybody out there.
 
The Rat said:
They need to do something radical

Just picking burns to open with cook won’t work

I want Cook at 3, Root 4
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i was thinking this too, they need a fresh start at the top for me, give cook the chance to come in and do the trott role of grinding down the opposition and let root come in at 4 in the old ' kp role. It's when we were most successful.
assuming bairstow doesn't make it I'd go

Gubbins
burns
Cook
Root
Pope/livingstone
Stokes
Butter
Woakes
Curran
Rashid
Anderson
 
Steak Pie said:
Yeah, I know what you were saying with Pope. If there was a natural number 3 putting his hands up then fine (Livingstone is done for the season with his thumb), but I can't see one anywhere. Jennings has played some superb innings for Lancs this year but just can't seem make the step up, he's running out of chances.

For the last couple of years we've had the 6/7/8 powerhouse of Ben/Jonny/Modern to bail the top order out, but now that's gone it's just highlighting the problems. I'd be tempted to restore it (injury notwithstanding).
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Bairstow
Burns
Cook
Root
Hildreth
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Woakes
Etc

Why not?

scotch said:
i was thinking this too, they need a fresh start at the top for me, give cook the chance to come in and do the trott role of grinding down the opposition and let root come in at 4 in the old ' kp role. It's when we were most successful.
assuming bairstow doesn't make it I'd go

Gubbins
burns
Cook
Root
Pope/livingstone
Stokes
Butter
Woakes
Curran
Rashid
Anderson
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It’s ny logic anyway, just mix it up

Cook is good evough it’s just not working

I don’t agree with one thing. Pope/Liv type of player, we need a colly/Ballance style player

Too many blokes who play too many shots
 
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Bri said:
I don't have much against the individuals but I do have an issue with playing players out of position. Opening is a specialist position and given the choice I'd play specialist openers a 1,2 and 3 - and that's a testament to our batting fragility.

Bairstow is not an opener no matter how much he practices. Nor is Gubbins. Burns is a good pick imho but I'd turn the country upside down to find another opener. If we can't find proper openers it's a strong indication that County Cricket is f*cked.

re: Leach. He's good on turning pitches as his record at Taunton shows. He's also a SLA - good to have one.
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It's a fair enough argument on Bairstow.

But Gubbins has batter opener his entire career hasn't he?
 
Comeback_Kenwyne said:
Pulling up trees at the moment, get him back - outstanding cricketer.

Also think bringing Buttler back has added an unnecessary complication. At test level, Stokes and Ali are better batters. And Woakes.

We need a total overhaul. I'd pick Gubbins and Burns for the next two tests, drop Root to four, Pope to five, bring in Ali at seven, give Buttler the gloves at eight and tell him to tee-off regardless of the situation (ok, maybe not if its a rearguard acton, but you get the picture: simplify the game for him), Woakes at nine. If that doesn't get runs somewhere well, then I'm stumped (though on form Stokes would probably be down at nine!!).

Long-term, would be telling Bairstow to get in some nets appropriate for an opening batsman - to replace Cook (or one of the other two if they look completely out of shorts and/or Cook rediscovers himself). I'd also be getting Pope to wicketkeeping practice - I just don't think Buttler has it at this level, but he can see out the series - and ready Clarke to come into the middle order.

So conceivably it could be this for the winter:

Gubbins/Cook
Bairstow
Burns
Root
Clarke
Pope (*)
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

God knows who the second spinner would be to come in for Woakes on turning surfaces, Rashid bowls too many bad balls, Leach not enough threatening ones.
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If you're going to go down that road would you not just give Ben Foakes a chance, he seems to be holding the gloves at Surrey. I don't think Buttler has it either, but you'll get called some names on this board for that chief.

Has Bairstow ever opened before? Not a road I would look at as I think he's world class as a keeper/bat, so that's where I'd leave him. I hate to repeat myself, but I would bring Liam Livingstone in when he's fit.

Now that they've picked Rashid then give him a run and have proper look. I doubt he'll make it long term, but I've always been an advocate of giving your players a year or so. Now that they've gone down that road then give him a chance.

So for the winter....

Cook
Burns
Livingstone
Root
Pope
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes/Rashid
Broad
Anderson

I wouldn't particularly choose any of those new picks as a hill to die on though.
 
Steak Pie said:
If you're going to go down that road would you not just give Ben Foakes a chance, he seems to be holding the gloves at Surrey. I don't think Buttler has it either, but you'll get called some names on this board for that chief.

Has Bairstow ever opened before? Not a road I would look at as I think he's world class as a keeper/bat, so that's where I'd leave him. I hate to repeat myself, but I would bring Liam Livingstone in when he's fit.

Now that they've picked Rashid then give him a run and have proper look. I doubt he'll make it long term, but I've always been an advocate of giving your players a year or so. Now that they've gone down that road then give him a chance.

So for the winter....

Cook
Burns
Livingstone
Root
Pope
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes/Rashid
Broad
Anderson

I wouldn't particularly choose any of those new picks as a hill to die on though.
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Aye. Nobody is stepping up, that's the problem. I just think Bairstow as seven is daft - he's ranked number 9 in the world. You could easily keep that team and rearrange it though - Pope at 6, Stokes at 7? I think you can let Bairstow have the gloves as long as he's five or lower. Beyond that and there's not enough rest.
 
Comeback_Kenwyne said:
Aye. Nobody is stepping up, that's the problem. I just think Bairstow as seven is daft - he's ranked number 9 in the world. You could easily keep that team and rearrange it though - Pope at 6, Stokes at 7? I think you can let Bairstow have the gloves as long as he's five or lower. Beyond that and there's not enough rest.
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Yeah, but my argument would be that he got to number 9 in the world batting at 7 so leave it be. Plus I would like to restore the 6/7/8 that was so good, I said at the time that breaking it up would be a mistake and it's looking a bigger error ever time we bat.
 
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Steak Pie said:
Yeah, but my argument would be that he got to number 9 in the world batting at 7 so leave it be. Plus I would like to restore the 6/7/8 that was so good, I said at the time that breaking it up would be a mistake and it's looking a bigger error ever time we bat.
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You do get a nice left, right, left, right (with Woakes at nine) too tbf.
 
Also

I really think we need to stop bringing so many left handlers in

Steak Pie said:
Yeah, but my argument would be that he got to number 9 in the world batting at 7 so leave it be. Plus I would like to restore the 6/7/8 that was so good, I said at the time that breaking it up would be a mistake and it's looking a bigger error ever time we bat.
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This sounds crazy

But I’d open with Bairstow or bat him 7

Nothing in between

He’s not a number 4 or 5

He just Isn’t
 
The Rat said:
Also

I really think we need to stop bringing so many left handlers in



This sounds crazy

But I’d open with Bairstow or bat him 7

Nothing in between

He’s not a number 4 or 5

He just Isn’t
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For me, it only works with him as opener if there are two blockers at 1 and 3. So (an in form) Cook and someone who is not Joe Root - maybe Burns/Gubbins?

I'd give it a go in the winter to see. If he can do it there will build his confidence for a home series, which is the ultimate test of openers really. But away from home it could strengthen us - he could be a bit of a Warner style flat-track bully. People sneer at that, but a lot of games are on flat tracks, so you know.

His technique is quite simple too - quite Trescothick like. He just needs to develop the eye and temperament to leave well.

Worth a look, but aye I don't hold my breath. Maybe you're right that he's 1 or 7 though.
 
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