England XI for the Summer

[Parkside]

I must have watched a different series tbh. Do you not think they were trying to read the situation when they were completely and utterly becalmed being bowled out for 145 in the second innings of the 4th test in close to 60 overs or the 122 in 40 overs in the 3rd test? I mean they were utterly shit but there's evidence right there that they can make the decisions to play the situation as they see it but reading it and carrying it out are two different things.

Don't agree. You read a situation and adapt as the situation develops. That's my reservation about Bazball -they Don't/can't adapt.

 

[Liverpool Beachball]

Let’s be honest we should be winning the games this summer 5-0 or 6-0 so this should be used to blood younger players with India at home next summer then the away ashes next winter in mind

Pope gets the first series of this summer then should be binned if he fails. Don’t rate Lawrence but he will be next in line. Bohannon or even Lees could also be options for this spot.

Brook in for Bairstow is a no brainer now

Either they back Foakes (and move him up the order above stokes) or bring in Robinson / Rew/ Smith now as WK and back them for 18 months.

Jimmy and Woakes should still be the first choice seamers but rotate with Potts and Robinson if he gets his fitness sorted. One of Wood/ Atkinson/ Tongue plays as the raw pace first change option.

Again we have a decision to make re spin. Personally be tempted to back Bashir over leach but will depend on how leach recovers from injury and how much game time they both get at Somerset in the early season

 

[rentaghost]

Don't agree. You read a situation and adapt as the situation develops. That's my reservation about Bazball -they Don't/can't adapt.

So what were they trying to do when being bowled out for 145 in close to 60 overs in the 3rd innings of the 4th test? What were they trying to do when being bowled out for 122 in 40 overs in the 3rd test?

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Let’s be honest we should be winning the games this summer 5-0 or 6-0 so this should be used to blood younger players with India at home next summer then the away ashes next winter in mind

Borderline wo….

 

[Voice of fair play]

Fact was Root just didn't have the qualities to be able to make decisions nor the strength to see them carried out. Shouldn't ever have been captain,for that reason I'm loathe to criticize. Stokes is the polar opposite - blind faith!!

Yeah I get what you saying mate and respect it, as ever with our discussions it doesn’t have to be all or the other there is middle ground.

My philosophy in all sports is when faced with a choice between a positive or less positive decision I will champion the positive one.

I do think ( just my opinion) that the best way to get the best out of top international sportsman is if possible to take the fear and pressure away from them best you can.

Which this regime is very good at imo.

That’s not to say some of your points are not valid and good they are.

But it still puzzles me in general how the criticism outweighs the plaudits on this set up

 

[Parkside]

So what were they trying to do when being bowled out for 145 in close to 60 overs in the 3rd innings of the 4th test? What were they trying to do when being bowled out for 122 in 40 overs in the 3rd test?

Not defending adequately i.e. They can only play one way.

 

[rentaghost]

Not defending adequately i.e. They can only play one way.

So it is adaptable in terms of the players approach though? So if we are agreeing on that its different players you need in - those with better defensive techniques? Hameed and Sibley tend to defend well, Jennings might only average around 18 in England and has had 3 chances already but he doesnt have a bad defensive technique, Compton maybe? Who are your choices

 

[Parkside]

So it is adaptable in terms of the players approach though? So if we are agreeing on that its different players you need in - those with better defensive techniques? Hameed and Sibley tend to defend well, Jennings might only average around 18 in England and has had 3 chances already but he doesnt have a bad defensive technique, Compton maybe? Who are your choices

I think Duckett,Crawley Bairstow and Pope are One -dimensional Hameed, Compton and Sibley one-dimensional in the other extreme. Jennings can adapt,as can Bohannon and Lees.Obviously Root, Brook and Stokes although Stokes certainly hasn't shown it this series but certainly has in the past

 

[TheRey]

Looking at your squad its going to be fascinating to see who make the top 6 of the batting order. They can't all play if available and the signing of Lawrence looks a bit excessive with the young batsmen coming through like Geddess.
Always liked Smith from watching him bat for England u19s.

TBF, I think Lawrence was brought in knowing we're going to be without Jacks and Pope, possibly Smith, possibly Foakes - he's there, essentially, to cover players being called up by England.

 

[rentaghost]

I think Duckett,Crawley Bairstow and Pope are One -dimensional Hameed, Compton and Sibley one-dimensional in the other extreme. Jennings can adapt,as can Bohannon and Lees.Obviously Root, Brook and Stokes although Stokes certainly hasn't shown it this series but certainly has in the past

We have had plenty players who can adapt Jennings, Stoneman, Burns, Lees etc all score rapidly but fail to average above mid 20s in test cricket. Bohannon might be an answer but never gets a shout in the shorter format so I’m unsure about his ability to go through the gears. Which goes back to the original point - Duckett, Crawley etc are in because of the failure of those 2 dimensional players you refer to.

 

[Voice of fair play]

We have had plenty players who can adapt Jennings, Stoneman, Burns, Lees etc all score rapidly but fail to average above mid 20s in test cricket. Bohannon might be an answer but never gets a shout in the shorter format so I’m unsure about his ability to go through the gears. Which goes back to the original point - Duckett, Crawley etc are in because of the failure of those 2 dimensional players you refer to.

And imo those last two are doing better than the previous openers, because this regime gives them confidence and backing to play their natural game, so their mind and the messaging is clear.

 

[Parkside]

We have had plenty players who can adapt Jennings, Stoneman, Burns, Lees etc all score rapidly but fail to average above mid 20s in test cricket. Bohannon might be an answer but never gets a shout in the shorter format so I’m unsure about his ability to go through the gears. Which goes back to the original point - Duckett, Crawley etc are in because of the failure of those 2 dimensional players you refer to.

The fact that Lees, Bohannon and Jennings were on the recent Lions tour suggests they're still on the England radar and haven't been written off. There appears to be little emerging 2dimensional talent due to the fragmented nature of red ball cricket and the obsession with that folly of the Hundred. Until that issue is addressed the paucity will remain.

And imo those last two are doing better than the previous openers, because this regime gives them confidence and backing to play their natural game, so their mind and the messaging is clear.

They're 1 dimensional players i.e. sloggers. No denying they're good at that.

 

[mackembhoy]

I'm f***ing sick of this line. If Man City don't win the EPL this season, do you think they'll say "ah well, we were in League One a few years ago"? Would they fuck.

Just because we were shit a while ago and have got a little better, it doesn't mean anyone trying to point out that this team isn't perfect and still needs a LOT of work wants a re-run of the Root era.

The problem is that you just like slap and giggle cricket, with big "maximums" and bowlers just being cannon fodder as another crowd catch goes begging, so refuse to accept any criticism of it.

Yanno what, I completely forgot that one
Some Ireland superfan I am

Not just you mind. This in this BBC article from the chief cricket writer.

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"In fairness to Stokes and McCullum, this is their first series defeat, but they also haven't won any of their past three."

 

[Voice of fair play]

The fact that Lees, Bohannon and Jennings were on the recent Lions tour suggests they're still on the England radar and haven't been written off. There appears to be little emerging 2dimensional talent due to the fragmented nature of red ball cricket and the obsession with that folly of the Hundred. Until that issue is addressed the paucity will remain.

They're 1 dimensional players i.e. sloggers. No denying they're good at that.

I remember you once saying to me that a openers job is to bat the first 20 overs to see off the new ball irrespective of how many runs they score.

These two openers have gone totally against that concept and since they have we have been getting much better starts than before.

There probably more dimensional than previous openers as they capable of making runs in all formats including tests, where as other previous openers such as Sibley, Hameed etc less dimensional as could only play in the longer format and were not good at that in the top level

 

[rentaghost]

The fact that Lees, Bohannon and Jennings were on the recent Lions tour suggests they're still on the England radar and haven't been written off. There appears to be little emerging 2dimensional talent due to the fragmented nature of red ball cricket and the obsession with that folly of the Hundred. Until that issue is addressed the paucity will remain.

They're 1 dimensional players i.e. sloggers. No denying they're good at that.

So essentially the choice at present seems to be two dimensional test cricket failures or one dimensional test players with much better records?

 

[Parkside]

I remember you once saying to me that a openers job is to bat the first 20 overs to see off the new ball irrespective of how many runs they score.

These two openers have gone totally against that concept and since they have we have been getting much better starts than before.

There probably more dimensional than previous openers as they capable of making runs in all formats including tests, where as other previous openers such as Sibley, Hameed etc less dimensional as could only play in the longer format and were not good at that in the top level

True, it's complete reversal. Express start generally then middle order collapses like a deck of cards and all out 200+ and opposition in a commanding position by end of day. How many times did that happen in India!
alternatively See off the new ball and the opening bowlers and you likely to build a solid platform. There are 4 innings in a test match spread over 5 days. Why the obsession with slogging?

 

[rentaghost]

Also there’s just too much made of the styles it’s just whether or not we have batsmen good enough to succeed at the top level of test match cricket. Do we have conventional batsmen as good as:
India - Jaiswal, Rohit, Gill, Kohli etc
NZ - Conway, Williamson, Ravindra etc
Aus - Khawaja, Smith, Labaschagne etc

I think we clearly don’t. The records of these guys stand way above ours bar Root so we have to find a way to compete until we have players good enough to beat them like for like.

True, it's complete reversal. Express start generally then middle order collapses like a deck of cards and all out 200+ and opposition in a commanding position by end of day. How many times did that happen in India!
alternatively See off the new ball and the opening bowlers and you likely to build a solid platform. There are 4 innings in a test match spread over 5 days. Why the obsession with slogging?

The middle order are generally getting in at 80 for 2 after 20 overs rather than 12 for 2 after 8 overs previously? What would you prefer?

 

[Voice of fair play]

True, it's complete reversal. Express start generally then middle order collapses like a deck of cards and all out 200+ and opposition in a commanding position by end of day. See off the new ball and the opening bowlers and you likely to build a solid platform. There are 4 innings in a test match spread over 5 days. Why the obsession with slogging?

Firstly in this series it’s was mainly middle order collapses due to the spinners going though us, would have been even lower scores for us, if the openers never got us off to good starts by taking attack to the bowlers.

What happened previously when we tried to just see off the new ball, was players got out regularly and we were 2 down for next to nothing

 

[Parkside]

Also there’s just too much made of the styles it’s just whether or not we have batsmen good enough to succeed at the top level of test match cricket. Do we have conventional batsmen as good as:
India - Jaiswal, Rohit, Gill, Kohli etc
NZ - Conway, Williamson, Ravindra etc
Aus - Khawaja, Smith, Labaschagne etc

I think we clearly don’t. The records of these guys stand way above ours bar Root so we have to find a way to compete until we have players good enough to beat them like for like.

The middle order are generally getting in at 80 for 2 after 20 overs rather than 12 for 2 after 8 overs previously? What would you prefer?

Not so sure that 8 for 2 was a norm. If it was I'd find 2 openers who'd play the ball on it's merits.

So essentially the choice at present seems to be two dimensional test cricket failures or one dimensional test players with much better records?

The solution is to have a balance between red and white ball cricket enabling players to become 2 dimensional. Quick fire 40s or 50s don't win 5 day games.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Not so sure that 8 for 2 was a norm. If it was I'd find 2 openers who'd play the ball on it's merits.

The solution is to have a balance between red and white ball cricket enabling players to become 2 dimensional. Quick fire 40s or 50s don't win 5 day games.

Well I agree but the current choice of openers in this country means the ones scoring quick fire 40s and 50s are better than the ones who were scoring slow 10s and 20s.