Durham Cricket League

[robkitchuk]

Unlikely when only two go up a season and there are divisions where as many as 8 teams are far too low down the structure.

My main worry is that those clubs wrongly elevated above their true standing will end up as whipping boys for a couple of seasons and will end up folding as players get demoralised from losing so often.


We’ll see this year and beyond I suspect, until that point it’s all about opinions as neither of us can truly know at this point. However, as I suggested, it’s my firm belief that there are about a dozen teams in higher divisions who aren’t as good as Brandon 2’s will be this year.

Again, it isn’t just Brandon. Look at the likes of Dawdon and Hylton 2’s for example - they’d walk all over half of the teams in the division above and even some teams two above.

I’d love to know what the criteria was.

The criteria was league placing, solely as far as I'm aware. As that the only method which would appear to be acceptable to all clubs. Personally I think a good few DCL teams may be surprised by the standard in the NEDCL. I cant help but feel some former DCL second teams will get a bit of a shock.
Let's just hope clubs dont start hoying money at the problem. And those that do are found out and dealt with.

Except that hasn’t happened has it? That would’ve meant a relative comparison of the two seperate leagues. In my experience the NEDCL was vastly inferior to the DCL in terms of quality - again, I reiterate I mean no offence by that, just calling it as it is. So I revert back to my original suggestion that in my view NEDCL clubs appear to have been elevated generously above their capability.

Why is that?

I'm interested, what criteria could have been used instead? There is very little else to go off that I can see.

 

[ac arundez]

It isn’t possible to directly compare teams from different leagues in such a way though, because the quality between the DCL and NEDCL was different in a manner not represented in the Division make-up.

It appears to me like they’ve ‘artificially elevated’ teams from the former NEDCL to get/keep them on board.

Absolute tosh! It was laid out plain and simple months ago and all based on league position which was the simplest way of getting it done and dusted. If Brandon 2nds are in that division it’s because they finished in their respective league last season in said position. If you believe that is “artificially elevating” NEDCL teams you’re barking up wrong tree. If you think Brandon’s divisional placing is so beneath them then I look forward to you collecting the league winners medals at the end of the 2020 season.

Except that hasn’t happened has it? That would’ve meant a relative comparison of the two seperate leagues. In my experience the NEDCL was vastly inferior to the DCL in terms of quality - again, I reiterate I mean no offence by that, just calling it as it is. So I revert back to my original suggestion that in my view NEDCL clubs appear to have been elevated generously above their capability.

Why is that?

Except it has happened though hasn’t it? The best teams in NEDCL will play the best 2nds from DCL and right down the structure that’s the case. The relative comparison is that the better second teams from DCL will compete and vice versa with NEDCL teams.

It’s your “opinion” that NEDCL is vastly inferior, my opinion and many others is that it’s not, especially when it comes to the old NEDCL first teams playing second teams.

I can’t see how you think any of those sides have been elevated but I look forward to you coming up with more insightful drivel backed up by better suggestions as to how it should of been done.

 

[badger55]

I do not always agree with Brandon, but, unless I am missing something, I think he has a point.
I cannot see how, or why, Hunwick 2nds, Kimblesworth 2nds, East Rainton 2nds, and Belmont 2nds are in Division 5 and Brandon 2nds are in Division 6.
If there is an explanation of this I would like to hear it ?
All DCL first teams are in higher divisions than NEDCL first teams, except for Seaham Harbour who got promoted.
Surely then all DCL second teams should be placed higher than NEDCL second teams ??

 

[ac arundez]

I do not always agree with Brandon, but, unless I am missing something, I think he has a point.
I cannot see how, or why, Hunwick 2nds, Kimblesworth 2nds, East Rainton 2nds, and Belmont 2nds are in Division 5 and Brandon 2nds are in Division 6.
If there is an explanation of this I would like to hear it ?
All DCL first teams are in higher divisions than NEDCL first teams, except for Seaham Harbour who got promoted.
Surely then all DCL second teams should be placed higher than NEDCL second teams ??

The explanation is simple, as has been described many times on here already. There was a proposed system for merging leagues based purely upon league position which all clubs agreed and voted on. It’s really that simple. Nothing high and mighty about DCL 2nd teams. The split was clear for all and sundry before the merger was ratified and in the vast vast majority not a single nut out of discontent, until the nameless keyboard warriors get involved that is.

If Brandon 2s or whichever 2nds for that matter finished in the proposed positions for new structure, that were agreed by all member clubs from both leagues, then they start in that division in 2020.

This notion that some DCL seconds have been hard done by is nonsense. They never played in a competitive (promotion/relegation) structure and were always governed by whatever division their first team has been in. Been like that since time began for majority of these clubs that haven’t been in NEPL.

There was no fairer way of doing it that was proposed, and this way was voted on unanimously by every single club. So I suggest if there is now an issue with it, get your club representative to email the league and we’ll hear the concerns and respond officially.

I don’t post on here in an official capacity, my opinions do not necessarily reflect that of the new league but I will respond via an appropriate/official channel if required alongside the league sec.

 

[Hilly]

I do not always agree with Brandon, but, unless I am missing something, I think he has a point.
I cannot see how, or why, Hunwick 2nds, Kimblesworth 2nds, East Rainton 2nds, and Belmont 2nds are in Division 5 and Brandon 2nds are in Division 6.
If there is an explanation of this I would like to hear it ?
All DCL first teams are in higher divisions than NEDCL first teams, except for Seaham Harbour who got promoted.
Surely then all DCL second teams should be placed higher than NEDCL second teams ??

Ok. I'll bite.

Last season we (Hunwick 2s) bowled Brandon out for 40 and knocked it off without losing a wicket. Sadly the return fixture was rained off. Think some are looking through heavily rose tinted specs.

For most of last season Brandon 2s were heavily reliant on kids and where they ended up in the league shows that. Perhaps they've strengthened during the winter, or had a number of ex-players return, but you cant just put them in a higher division on the off chance that might be better this season.

Having played in both leagues, Division 5 will be a very competitive league next year. As has been mentioned Hylton 2s are very good and quote rightly should be favourites. Dawdon, Kimblesworth, East Rainton are no mugs either.

There are a number in that league who (in my opinion) are better than some in Division 4 e.g. Coundon, Stanhope etc... But.... like has been said.... give it a season or two and teams will naturally find their place.

 

[badger55]

My apologies to Hunwick 2nds. I forgot that Hunwick CC were already in the DCL.
But how do the likes of Belmont 2nds and East Rainton 2nds get placed in Division 5, above Brandon 2nds ?
I also note that Peterlee 2nds finished above Boldon CA 2nds in 2019 but have been placed in a lower league that Boldon CA.
If it was all about league position last season then how did this happen ?

 

[brandon]

Are Brandon forking our a fortune this season? I think your comment regarding Dawdon and Hylton 2’s is rather exaggerated mind.

I’ve no idea, I’m not the treasurer, or chairman, or even on the committee.

As for the Dawdon and Hylton comment - how is it exaggerated? I’ve based my point on experience of seeing the various teams play and of the players involved who I either know personally or from previous competition.

The criteria was league placing, solely as far as I'm aware. As that the only method which would appear to be acceptable to all clubs. Personally I think a good few DCL teams may be surprised by the standard in the NEDCL. I cant help but feel some former DCL second teams will get a bit of a shock.
Let's just hope clubs dont start hoying money at the problem. And those that do are found out and dealt with.

I'm interested, what criteria could have been used instead? There is very little else to go off that I can see.

For me you could simply have aligned the NEDCL divisions below the DCL ones - I see the main argument for the current set up being that in a few years teams will find their level, with my example the same would apply.

There’s no hard and fast solution granted, but seeing how the NEDCL was quite obviously as a collective below the standard as a collective of the DCL (not just in playing standard, but also facility) it makes far more sense than to falsely elevate clubs by using a ridiculous and ultimately false system of direct comparison. What they’re saying is that DCL3 is exactly the same in terms of quality as NEDCL1. That simply is not true.

Furthermore, the NEPL and DCL are a pyramid system, the NEDCL was not and so I see no reason why the NEDCL can’t sinply tack onto the bottom of the DCL structure and go from there. Clubs with a modicum of ambition will be prepared to play the long game, improving facilities, their ground, infrastructure and importantly their playing capability - likely through an improved youth set-up.

I see the punishment of clubs in the DCL, some who are actively looking to get into the NEPL, as very unsavoury. Those clubs were happy to be part of a pyramid, a meritocracy if you will, they acknowledged promotion and relegation a long time ago - so why then should they be demoted?

It’s more than possible for one or two clubs to gain promotion to the NEPL in the next couple of years, meaning their Second XI’s would suddenly jump 5/6 divisions up the pyramid. It’s absolutely bonkers.

If you think Brandon’s divisional placing is so beneath them then I look forward to you collecting the league winners medals at the end of the 2020 season.

I look forward to you pointing out where I’ve said that.

I’ll wait.

 

[ac arundez]

I’ve no idea, I’m not the treasurer, or chairman, or even on the committee.

As for the Dawdon and Hylton comment - how is it exaggerated? I’ve based my point on experience of seeing the various teams play and of the players involved who I either know personally or from previous competition.


For me you could simply have aligned the NEDCL divisions below the DCL ones - I see the main argument for the current set up being that in a few years teams will find their level, with my example the same would apply.

There’s no hard and fast solution granted, but seeing how the NEDCL was quite obviously as a collective below the standard as a collective of the DCL (not just in playing standard, but also facility) it makes far more sense than to falsely elevate clubs by using a ridiculous and ultimately false system of direct comparison. What they’re saying is that DCL3 is exactly the same in terms of quality as NEDCL1. That simply is not true.

Furthermore, the NEPL and DCL are a pyramid system, the NEDCL was not and so I see no reason why the NEDCL can’t sinply tack onto the bottom of the DCL structure and go from there. Clubs with a modicum of ambition will be prepared to play the long game, improving facilities, their ground, infrastructure and importantly their playing capability - likely through an improved youth set-up.

I see the punishment of clubs in the DCL, some who are actively looking to get into the NEPL, as very unsavoury. Those clubs were happy to be part of a pyramid, a meritocracy if you will, they acknowledged promotion and relegation a long time ago - so why then should they be demoted?

It’s more than possible for one or two clubs to gain promotion to the NEPL in the next couple of years, meaning their Second XI’s would suddenly jump 5/6 divisions up the pyramid. It’s absolutely bonkers.

Massive glaring error, NEDCL WERE part of pyramid officially as of Hunwocks promotion season, so I’ll be honest I didn’t bother reading the rest

 

[brandon]

until the nameless keyboard warriors get involved that is.

It appears the only ‘keyboard warrior’ here is you, everyone else seems to be able to enter into constructive and respectful debate - you’re the one getting personal or atleast taking it personal and hurling insults.

This notion that some DCL seconds have been hard done by is nonsense. They never played in a competitive (promotion/relegation) structure and were always governed by whatever division their first team has been in. Been like that since time began for majority of these clubs that haven’t been in NEPL.

Except they do play in a competitive structure, hence why Ushaw Moor 2’s we’re promoted from 2nd XI Division 2 (when they won the league in 2017) to 2nd XI Division 1 for 2018

Massive glaring error, NEDCL WERE part of pyramid officially as of Hunwocks promotion season, so I’ll be honest I didn’t bother reading the rest

Well my error cancels out the fact you claimed Second Teams didn’t play in a competitive structure so perhaps you should allow yourself the benefit of possible enlightenment by reading the rest. Ignorance isn’t an excuse, neither is pig-headedness but then that’s something I’ve found a quite common trait in various league officials over the years.

Bigger fool you I’d argue however, seeing how you’re within the league professionally and still didn’t know the rules playing and conditions

This notion that some DCL seconds have been hard done by is nonsense. They never played in a competitive (promotion/relegation) structure and were always governed by whatever division their first team has been in. Been like that since time began for majority of these clubs that haven’t been in NEPL.

I’d also like to re-visit this point.

As has been pointed out, if Peterlee 2’s finished higher than Boldon 2’s, yet are now in a Division below them - would you agree they’ve been hard done by?

Or is that still nonsense?

 

[ac arundez]

It appears the only ‘keyboard warrior’ here is you, everyone else seems to be able to enter into constructive and respectful debate - you’re the one getting personal or atleast taking it personal and hurling insults.

No keyboard warrior here, more than happy to back up anything I type with words that come straight out of my mouth.

Except they do play in a competitive structure, hence why Ushaw Moor 2’s we’re promoted from 2nd XI Division 2 (when they won the league in 2017) to 2nd XI Division 1 for 2018

No, unfortunately and with respect you are simply wrong. Ushaw Moor 2s went to division 1 2nd teams as their 1st team had won league. Littletown 2nds won the league that year and had Littletown 1st team not finished runners up to Ushaw 1st team, the Littletown 2nd team would’ve stayed put. Regardless of whether they won league or not.


Well my error cancels out the fact you claimed Second Teams didn’t play in a competitive structure so perhaps you should allow yourself the benefit of possible enlightenment by reading the rest. Ignorance isn’t an excuse, neither is pig-headedness but then that’s something I’ve found a quite common trait in various league officials over the years.

See above point, second teams do not play in a promotion/relaxation competitive structure in DCL, never have.

Bigger fool you I’d argue however, seeing how you’re within the league professionally and still didn’t know the rules playing and conditions

Pretty sure I do - both playing conditions and league rules, think it’s you that needs to go and check the old DCL rules for where second XIs used to play.


I’d also like to re-visit this point.

As has been pointed out, if Peterlee 2’s finished higher than Boldon 2’s, yet are now in a Division below them - would you agree they’ve been hard done by?

I’ll check this out as I’m sure someone from one of those respective clubs would have been in touch to state that they have been placed in wrong division by total admin error. I’ll also take it up with league sec.

Or is that still nonsense?

It appears the only ‘keyboard warrior’ here is you, everyone else seems to be able to enter into constructive and respectful debate - you’re the one getting personal or atleast taking it personal and hurling insults.

*** No keyboard warrior here, more than happy to back up anything I type with words that come straight out of my mouth.

Except they do play in a competitive structure, hence why Ushaw Moor 2’s we’re promoted from 2nd XI Division 2 (when they won the league in 2017) to 2nd XI Division 1 for 2018

*** No, unfortunately and with respect you are simply wrong. Ushaw Moor 2s went to division 1 2nd teams as their 1st team had won league in 2018. Littletown 2nds won the league that year (2018) and had Littletown 1st team not finished runners up to Ushaw 1st team, the Littletown 2nd team would’ve stayed put. Regardless of whether they won league or not.

The year you have in question (2017), Ushaw Moor 2nds won league and moved nowhere and in 2018 season finished 8th or something, but guess what, moves with their first XI to DCL 1 2nd teams in 2019.

Well my error cancels out the fact you claimed Second Teams didn’t play in a competitive structure so perhaps you should allow yourself the benefit of possible enlightenment by reading the rest. Ignorance isn’t an excuse, neither is pig-headedness but then that’s something I’ve found a quite common trait in various league officials over the years.

*** See above point, second teams do not play in a promotion/relegation competitive structure in DCL, never have and that is the one of the main reasons they have been placed below certain teams from NEDCL1 as they were part of pyramid structure.

Bigger fool you I’d argue however, seeing how you’re within the league professionally and still didn’t know the rules playing and conditions

*** Pretty sure I do - both playing conditions and league rules, think it’s you that needs to go and check the old DCL rules for where second XIs used to play. Do yourself a favour and have a look at the Play.Cricket archives or talk to any player from a second XI who has won a league/finished bottom but never moved unless their respective first team had been promoted/relegated.


I’d also like to re-visit this point.

As has been pointed out, if Peterlee 2’s finished higher than Boldon 2’s, yet are now in a Division below them - would you agree they’ve been hard done by?

***I’ll check this out as I’m sure someone from one of those respective clubs would have been in touch to state that they have been placed in wrong division by total admin error. I’ll also take it up with league sec.

Or is that still nonsense?

So just done quick check, all seems in order with the Boldon/Peterlee 2nds situation.

According to my official league documentation, Peterlee 2nd XI finished above Boldon CA 2nd XI.

Peterlee 2nd XI are in Division 5
Boldon CA 2nd XI are in Division 6

So, what’s next on your list to hit the new league with?
Ps. No idea what’s going on with my phone and trying to edit responses so apologies if it looks mixed up. View the one with Asterix on my responses as it detailed better in terms of the argument about the old DCL 2nd XI competition

 

[brandon]

So just done quick check, all seems in order with the Boldon/Peterlee 2nds situation.

According to my official league documentation, Peterlee 2nd XI finished above Boldon CA 2nd XI.

Peterlee 2nd XI are in Division 5
Boldon CA 2nd XI are in Division 6

So, what’s next on your list to hit the new league with?
Ps. No idea what’s going on with my phone and trying to edit responses so apologies if it looks mixed up. View the one with Asterix on my responses as it detailed better in terms of the argument about the old DCL 2nd XI competition

Not according to the post on this thread - is there an official link we can view to therefore see the ACTUAL structure?

 

[ac arundez]

Durham cricket league is defunct!?

The new Durham & North East Cricket League is as follows:
Division 1 - as defunct DCL division 1
Division 2 - as defunct DCL division 2 except Seaham Harbour included in the place of relegated Langely Park.

Division 3
Langely Park i
Bill quay ii
Durham city ii
South Shields ii
Easington ii
Littletown ii
Whiteleas ii
Murton I
South Hetton I
Beamish I
Wearmouth I

Division 4
Marsden ii
Seaham park ii
Tudhoe ii
Esh winning ii
Horden ii
Hylton ii
Stanhope I
East Rainton i
Burnhope i
Coundon i
Belmont i

Division 5
Ushaw moor ii
Ryhope ii
Dawdon ii
Boldon ca ii
Hunwick ii
Kimblesworth ii
East Rainton ii
Simonside I
Kibblesworth I
Seaham harbour ii
Belmont ii

Division 6
Peterlee ii
Mainsforth ii
Brandon ii
Even wood ii
Langely park ii
Silksworth ii
Burnhope ii
Beamish ii
Murton ii
Tantobie i

The only other amendment being Whiteleas potentially dropping to one team. So unsure of this impact of this yet.
Plus new website and facebook launched yesterday. But website is under development. Facebook was created yesterday due to issues.

Rob, just to let you know this list is incorrect, I think it’s from a very early version from Cliff. The latest version from him has Peterlee and Boldon 2s the right way around... oh and Brandon 2s in Division 6 as they finished 9th in their division last season, so will start in Division 6, exactly where their club votes for them to start and where they would’ve known they would’ve started from approximately June last year.

You don’t need to go far to check it out: Durham Cricket League

So kindly explain to us why Peterlee have been placed in a Division BELOW Boldon CA, despite finishing higher than them last season.

See my explantaion to Rob, he had an old inaccurate version from Cliff that he posted.
While you’re great at pointing out links for where to go, you should take a look at that site yourself and where Ushaw Moor 2nds finished the year after their mythical promotion you seem to know so much about...

 

[brandon]

There are a number in that league who (in my opinion) are better than some in Division 4 e.g. Coundon, Stanhope etc... But.... like has been said.... give it a season or two and teams will naturally find their place.

Not if they’re three divisions below where they should rightfully be, and in a Division with 6 other teams who are in a lower division than their capability - could take up to a decade.

Which I will now reiterate is my main concern - teams (and possibly whole clubs) will fold. I wonder if the league committee will then take any responsibility for the extinction of clubs.

Rob, just to let you know this list is incorrect, I think it’s from a very early version from Cliff. The latest version from him has Peterlee and Boldon 2s the right way around... oh and Brandon 2s in Division 6 as they finished 9th in their division last season, so will start in Division 6, exactly where their club votes for them to start and where they would’ve known they would’ve started from approximately June last year.


See my explantaion to Rob, he had an old inaccurate version from Cliff that he posted.
While you’re great at pointing out links for where to go, you should take a look at that site yourself and where Ushaw Moor 2nds finished the year after their mythical promotion you seem to know so much about...

If you look, I edited my post upon seeing your edit.

So where can we find the OFFICIAL make up, so that mistakes aren’t made again?

 

[ac arundez]

Not according to the post on this thread - is there an official link we can view to therefore see the ACTUAL structure?

Not online at present, there will be once website and Facebook pages are fully operational.

There are official docs in existence however (the ones I went to check that aren’t online) so I’d suggest speaking to your club representatives/sec if you’d like to view them.

 

[brandon]

Not online at present, there will be once website and Facebook pages are fully operational.

There are official docs in existence however (the ones I went to check that aren’t online) so I’d suggest speaking to your club representatives/sec if you’d like to view them.

I’m speaking to you now, so why don’t you share the documents that you’re in possession of?

Or simply type out quickly the league structure for us all to see. You can’t criticise people for making errors based on the misinformation they’ve been given. As it hasn’t been published that’s the only thing we’ve currently got to go off.

 

[ac arundez]

Not if they’re three divisions below where they should rightfully be, and in a Division with 6 other teams who are in a lower division than their capability - could take up to a decade.

Which I will now reiterate is my main concern - teams (and possibly whole clubs) will fold. I wonder if the league committee will then take any responsibility for the extinction of clubs.


If you look, I edited my post upon seeing your edit.

So where can we find the OFFICIAL make up, so that mistakes aren’t made again?

Re; Your reiteration of your main concern - the member clubs voted for the structure so why should the league executive be held to account? One thing I know the league exec is there to do is protect and preserve cricket in the region which is surprisingly enough, exactly why the DNECL has happened.

You are totally guessing at wether club will fold due to those reasons, they’re more likely to fold due to lack of juniors, facilities and players than the reasons you are stating. But we will look at each situation on a case by case basis as we are with the current Whiteleas situation and have autonomy to act to prevent clubs from going to the wall.

I do sincerely hope that Brandon run away with division 6 mind after the noise you’ve made, otherwise your going to look very silly. Sounds like some of the sides in there should be very worried about facing an Aussie circa 2000s like side that finished 9th in their division last year.

 

[eddyfinn]

Not if they’re three divisions below where they should rightfully be, and in a Division with 6 other teams who are in a lower division than their capability - could take up to a decade.

Which I will now reiterate is my main concern - teams (and possibly whole clubs) will fold. I wonder if the league committee will then take any responsibility for the extinction of clubs.


If you look, I edited my post upon seeing your edit.

So where can we find the OFFICIAL make up, so that mistakes aren’t made again?

There are no teams based in Div 6 bases on the last couple of seasons in who are anywhere near Div 3 standard mind.
You will always get teams that are higher or lower than where they should be and that will generally depend who comes in or goes. I do understand peoples fustrations as games that arent competive arent good to play in for anyone, I also fear in Div 6 and possibly 5 that there will be games conceeded which is also not good for anyone and can harm all teams in the long run but the rules where there for everyone to see. You keep mentioning NEDCL teams but what about some of the DCL teams for example Horden 2nds are in Div 4 and have won one game in 2 years.

 

[ac arundez]

I’m speaking to you now, so why don’t you share the documents that you’re in possession of?

Or simply type out quickly the league structure for us all to see. You can’t criticise people for making errors based on the misinformation they’ve been given. As it hasn’t been published that’s the only thing we’ve currently got to go off.

It has been published and circulated to all clubs,so either go there to your rep or put simply, wait like every one else. I haven’t got time to type out a 6 divisional league structure on my phone to satisfy impatience.

And when I say not online I meant the docs not me physically not being online!

 

[SAFC2403]

I'm pretty sure this got voted in did it not @ac arundez ?

Option 1 in the below pic

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

Based on that above Brandon 2s being in division 6 based on them being in the bottom 6 of DCL 2's 2nd division is entirely correct.

 

[ac arundez]

I'm pretty sure this got voted in did it not @ac arundez ?

Option 1 in the below pic

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

Based on that above Brandon 2s being in division 6 based on them being in the bottom 6 of DCL 2's 2nd division is entirely correct.

Yes mate, correct. But I think @brandon wants a full run down of who’s in what division. But seeing as he is so familiar with the old DCL website as pointed out in his previous posts (oh and also the mythical rules he’s made up before proceeding to call me out as not knowing them), then maybe he can work out the divisions for himself?