Ashes 5 test - The Oval

Far Tibetan Mountain said:
he's a good wk in fairness but hes picked primarily for his batting and his batting has been sub standard during this series. Hes not alone on that but it hasnt been good enough.

Often enough good keepers have been left at home to acomodate sub standard wicket keepers who can bat enough though so he'll keep his place because he can do that and bat to a decent level

Shake things up how? Are there 3 or 4 excellent batsmen who are being kept out? Roy has to go and pope or balance can come back in in rhe middle order. I keep hearing that Sibley is a great opening batsman whk likes to bat slowly and it would solve more than one problem if he came in and lived up to the hype. But there arent 5 or 6 worls class cricketers who could come in and shake things up. That doesnt change if we narrowly win the next match to tie the series, draw it or lose by a massive margin.
Of course we could change the selectors and if root can be persuaded to give up the captajncy without retiring from international cricket then that may be for the best.
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We need to stop playing one day players. Buttler, Bairstow, Roy all out to similar deliveries. We also need to start planning for post Jimmy. We should be looking to take a long term holistic approach to selection from now and dispose of some of the players who carry mental baggage and start a fresh. Let some kids learn at test level, accept we’ll lose more than we win at the start but try to develop a culture of test cricket and not just shoehorning one day players into the team. Root clearly isn’t the man to captain the team either
 


TravellingMackem said:
We need to stop playing one day players. Buttler, Bairstow, Roy all out to similar deliveries. We also need to start planning for post Jimmy. We should be looking to take a long term holistic approach to selection from now and dispose of some of the players who carry mental baggage and start a fresh. Let some kids learn at test level, accept we’ll lose more than we win at the start but try to develop a culture of test cricket and not just shoehorning one day players into the team. Root clearly isn’t the man to captain the team either
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Bairstow has proven he can play test cricket, and even though his form isn’t the best I’d stick with him long term.

I’d like to see him given a decent break to recharge, and then come back either at number 5 without the gloves, or at number 7 with them.
The Rat said:
Same squad for me, Woakes or Curran in for Overton. No need. Bowling let us down this game.

Buttler up to 6 though.

Looking ahead to long term, a new opener will be tried, Root has to move back to 4, crazy he was pushed up and its back fired badly.

I'd be looking to bring Pope in for Buttler long term too.


I guarantee 99% of posters pushing for him have never seen him play live. Can't just lack at the averages and say he has to play like.
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Root at 3 was called for by many, myself included, and fair play to Root for sticking his hand up and showing some balls to bat there even though he’s openly admitted he wants to bat at 4. But it hasn’t worked, he needs to go back to number 4
 
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SAFC11 said:
Same squad announced. Stokes to be assessed over bowling, but woll be in as a batsmen anyway
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So we’re going to either send out of form and incompetent batsmen on the winter tours or bring in debutants in harsh away conditions instead of blooding them in a game with little pressure on them. f***ing madness.
 
Surprised Sam Northeast isn't mentioned by more people as a potential call-up and #3, especially as there are clear question marks over Root's captaincy.
 
Some strange posts on here

People suggesting making loads of changes for a one of test

Mostly suggesting plsyers they’ve never seen play
Liverpool Beachball said:
Burns
Sibley
Denly
Root
Pope
Stokes
Foakes
S Curran
Archer
Broad
Leach
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The obsession with foakes is very very strange, he’s been completely out of form, barely scored a run
 
fazza1970 said:
Surprised Sam Northeast isn't mentioned by more people as a potential call-up and #3, especially as there are clear question marks over Root's captaincy.
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Good shout, consistent run scorer over the years and always looks a decent bat. I knew that there would be minimal changes for the final test but an unchanged squad is poor IMO. Almost seems to be a fear to drop certain players. Pope at the very least should be in.
 
The Rat said:
Some strange posts on here

People suggesting making loads of changes for a one of test

Mostly suggesting plsyers they’ve never seen play


The obsession with foakes is very very strange, he’s been completely out of form, barely scored a run
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He was player of the series in Sri Lanka, then dropped after everyone had a bat time with the bat in the Windies to accommodate Bairstow as he wants to be keeper.

Bairstow showed in 2016 that he's our best batsman after Root, like myself many feel he should focus on batting. Taking the decision away from him, giving Foakes the best keeper in the country the gloves.

Bairstow doesn't keep in the ODI's and just look at what he's done with the bat as a result.

Foakes averages 29 this season with 5 half centuries, not fantastic. But I feel getting Bairstow back to his best with the bat is likely to yield better results for England, as he's clearly better than Denly, Roy and Buttler in terms of middle order players.

Keeping is a distraction to getting a player to rediscover his form. Sangkarra averaged 66 as a batsman and 40 as a keeper.
 
If Stokes can’t bowl do we see him being the latest shoved in at 3?

Burns
Denly
Stokes
Root
Pope/Roy/Buttler
Bairstow
Curran
Woakes
Archer
Leach
Broad
 
mackembhoy said:
He was player of the series in Sri Lanka, then dropped after everyone had a bat time with the bat in the Windies to accommodate Bairstow as he wants to be keeper.

Bairstow showed in 2016 that he's our best batsman after Root, like myself many feel he should focus on batting. Taking the decision away from him, giving Foakes the best keeper in the country the gloves.

Bairstow doesn't keep in the ODI's and just look at what he's done with the bat as a result.

Foakes averages 29 this season with 5 half centuries, not fantastic. But I feel getting Bairstow back to his best with the bat is likely to yield better results for England, as he's clearly better than Denly, Roy and Buttler in terms of middle order players.

Keeping is a distraction to getting a player to rediscover his form. Sangkarra averaged 66 as a batsman and 40 as a keeper.
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Foakes is not playing well, and he is way over rated, long term in the side? possibly but he needs more runs behind him

I have nout against him butjust sick of hearing his name, its canny mad how rated he is, like the second coming

Heard this for years about Leach, must player over Ali etc, then when he comes in, he is mo more than steady.

Jennings got a 100 in Sri Lanka too, its not much of a marker for scoring runs in England

Bairstow isn't a top 5 player, he is a number 7, and again said this a million times, people try and blame the lower order when its the top 5 that are the issue.


We have lost our 2nd home series (well we haven't lost actually) in 7 years, no need to change the whole side
They have 100% done the right thing keeping the squad, Roy has been shafted by Ed Smith and probs can't recover, but you give him another game in the middle order, we shouldn't panic, we have missed our best bowler, and Smith and a world class bowling unit have won it.

I'd appoint a new selector, new coach, then lets see how we want to play first and have a clear plan, not just pick names from a list of averages and say pick him, him, him


I do talk a lot of shite, but I have always been very consistent over the last 3 or 4 years about how I see England

The strength is our lower order, Root has to play 4, then You have Stokes at 6, Bairstow at 7, Ali (if he is in form, he was rightly dropped for a break) at 8.

I think Buttler won't score enough runs as a batsman, but he should be in and around the squad.

Teh issues are simpe, find a top 3 who can bat time, and set the game up for the middle order from Root downwards who can play their natural way, don't shoe horn players out of position, look at whats happened to Root

We have found one in Burns who has done OK, Denly shows he can bat time, but needs replacing long term

Then we could maybe move Stokes to 5 and try someone like Pope at 6 before slowly moving him up the order
Sorry for the rambling length of the post
England lost their way over last 18 months under Ed Smith when Root was moved to 3, we had Stokes at 3 one time, Ali at 3 and 5, Bairstow at 3,4,5

Yet these are the ones who get criticised, leave them in their best positions and then lets find some top order players, we found Burns, why can't we find some more?
fazza1970 said:
Surprised Sam Northeast isn't mentioned by more people as a potential call-up and #3, especially as there are clear question marks over Root's captaincy.
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Yeah he has been just about the best run scorer when fit in CC for as long as I can remember, just a run getter, surprised never even been talked about.

Our top 3 needs to be picked on charachter and players who can churn it out, our 4 to 7 will score runs if that happens, and we have the freedom of the best young talent like Pope at 6

Its a shame Roy never got the chance to have a series at 6, cant believe Ed Smith and James Taylor, they let him down
 
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The Rat said:
Foakes is not playing well, and he is way over rated, long term in the side? possibly but he needs more runs behind him

I have nout against him butjust sick of hearing his name, its canny mad how rated he is, like the second coming

Heard this for years about Leach, must player over Ali etc, then when he comes in, he is mo more than steady.

Jennings got a 100 in Sri Lanka too, its not much of a marker for scoring runs in England

Bairstow isn't a top 5 player, he is a number 7, and again said this a million times, people try and blame the lower order when its the top 5 that are the issue.


We have lost our 2nd home series (well we haven't lost actually) in 7 years, no need to change the whole side
They have 100% done the right thing keeping the squad, Roy has been shafted by Ed Smith and probs can't recover, but you give him another game in the middle order, we shouldn't panic, we have missed our best bowler, and Smith and a world class bowling unit have won it.

I'd appoint a new selector, new coach, then lets see how we want to play first and have a clear plan, not just pick names from a list of averages and say pick him, him, him


I do talk a lot of shite, but I have always been very consistent over the last 3 or 4 years about how I see England

The strength is our lower order, Root has to play 4, then You have Stokes at 6, Bairstow at 7, Ali (if he is in form, he was rightly dropped for a break) at 8.

I think Buttler won't score enough runs as a batsman, but he should be in and around the squad.

Teh issues are simpe, find a top 3 who can bat time, and set the game up for the middle order from Root downwards who can play their natural way, don't shoe horn players out of position, look at whats happened to Root

We have found one in Burns who has done OK, Denly shows he can bat time, but needs replacing long term

Then we could maybe move Stokes to 5 and try someone like Pope at 6 before slowly moving him up the order
Sorry for the rambling length of the post
England lost their way over last 18 months under Ed Smith when Root was moved to 3, we had Stokes at 3 one time, Ali at 3 and 5, Bairstow at 3,4,5

Yet these are the ones who get criticised, leave them in their best positions and then lets find some top order players, we found Burns, why can't we find some more?


Yeah he has been just about the best run scorer when fit in CC for as long as I can remember, just a run getter, surprised never even been talked d habout.

Our top 3 needs to be picked on charachter and players who can churn it out, our 4 to 7 will score runs if that happens, and we have the freedom of the best young talent like Pope at 6

Its a shame Roy never got the chance to have a series at 6, cant believe Ed Smith and James Taylor, they let him down
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Excellent post mate. Not gonna come and argue with any of that.

I personally would want foakes in the side, as I just see the value in having a top quality keeper in the side.

I wouldn't have buttler in and had Bairstow at 5.

As you said 2 and 3 are the real problems. Pope at 5 looks the best bet going forward.
 
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The Rat said:
Foakes is not playing well, and he is way over rated, long term in the side? possibly but he needs more runs behind him

I have nout against him butjust sick of hearing his name, its canny mad how rated he is, like the second coming

Heard this for years about Leach, must player over Ali etc, then when he comes in, he is mo more than steady.

Jennings got a 100 in Sri Lanka too, its not much of a marker for scoring runs in England

Bairstow isn't a top 5 player, he is a number 7, and again said this a million times, people try and blame the lower order when its the top 5 that are the issue.


We have lost our 2nd home series (well we haven't lost actually) in 7 years, no need to change the whole side
They have 100% done the right thing keeping the squad, Roy has been shafted by Ed Smith and probs can't recover, but you give him another game in the middle order, we shouldn't panic, we have missed our best bowler, and Smith and a world class bowling unit have won it.

I'd appoint a new selector, new coach, then lets see how we want to play first and have a clear plan, not just pick names from a list of averages and say pick him, him, him


I do talk a lot of shite, but I have always been very consistent over the last 3 or 4 years about how I see England

The strength is our lower order, Root has to play 4, then You have Stokes at 6, Bairstow at 7, Ali (if he is in form, he was rightly dropped for a break) at 8.

I think Buttler won't score enough runs as a batsman, but he should be in and around the squad.

Teh issues are simpe, find a top 3 who can bat time, and set the game up for the middle order from Root downwards who can play their natural way, don't shoe horn players out of position, look at whats happened to Root

We have found one in Burns who has done OK, Denly shows he can bat time, but needs replacing long term

Then we could maybe move Stokes to 5 and try someone like Pope at 6 before slowly moving him up the order
Sorry for the rambling length of the post
England lost their way over last 18 months under Ed Smith when Root was moved to 3, we had Stokes at 3 one time, Ali at 3 and 5, Bairstow at 3,4,5

Yet these are the ones who get criticised, leave them in their best positions and then lets find some top order players, we found Burns, why can't we find some more?


Yeah he has been just about the best run scorer when fit in CC for as long as I can remember, just a run getter, surprised never even been talked about.

Our top 3 needs to be picked on charachter and players who can churn it out, our 4 to 7 will score runs if that happens, and we have the freedom of the best young talent like Pope at 6

Its a shame Roy never got the chance to have a series at 6, cant believe Ed Smith and James Taylor, they let him down
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Good post that mate. In terms of the batting that is how I see it aswell pretty much. Let's get our best players in their best positions. Root 4, Stokes 5, Pope 6, Buttler or Bairstow 7, Ali 8 would be our best lineup really I think at the moment with the alternative options (form depending etc). As you have said Burns is 1 guaranteed opener but the other spot + number 3 are up for grabs.

Now who they are has to be a decision made by the selectors, who has the technical game to play test match cricket. Whoever it is I would like to see it be a well thought out decision of someone who can grind runs out at test level and not a flat track bully. I don't mind the odd low score if you can see they have the basic technique and more importantly the temperament of a top order test batsman(e.g. Burns) but no-one can honestly look at Roy and think long term he was gonna make consistent runs opening at test level.
 
cooky said:
Good post that mate. In terms of the batting that is how I see it aswell pretty much. Let's get our best players in their best positions. Root 4, Stokes 5, Pope 6, Buttler or Bairstow 7, Ali 8 would be our best lineup really I think at the moment with the alternative options (form depending etc). As you have said Burns is 1 guaranteed opener but the other spot + number 3 are up for grabs.

Now who they are has to be a decision made by the selectors, who has the technical game to play test match cricket. Whoever it is I would like to see it be a well thought out decision of someone who can grind runs out at test level and not a flat track bully. I don't mind the odd low score if you can see they have the basic technique and more importantly the temperament of a top order test batsman(e.g. Burns) but no-one can honestly look at Roy and think long term he was gonna make consistent runs opening at test level.
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Absolutely agreed yeah, and top order players who are willing to learn and have the ability to adapt. Burns isn't perfect but between the 3rd and 4th tests he developed a method of working out the short ball and ground out 80+.
 

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