Ashes 5 test - The Oval



mackembhoy said:
Excellent post mate. Not gonna come and argue with any of that.

I personally would want foakes in the side, as I just see the value in having a top quality keeper in the side.

I wouldn't have buttler in and had Bairstow at 5.

As you said 2 and 3 are the real problems. Pope at 5 looks the best bet going forward.
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Fair play mate, people will have opinions, he is a good gloveman like, but personally don't think it adds loads in England personally when Bairstow generally keeps pretty well. But its a fair enough call if you rate him.

I think might point being is that I do think those players have lost form due to being moved around a lot, you mentioned 2016 earlier, which was dead right, thats when they were probably all batting in their correct positions, feel they have all lost form trying to make up for other short falls, although its still down to them to score runs

Think everyone agrees though aye that 2 n 3 right positions, Burns has shown what we need

Even Denly 2 of his last 3 innings he ground out 50s and batted 120 balls, I'd move away from him probably in the winter, only as of age, but I can see why he is picked, he plays the ball late and he has guts, but not quite the ability to go big.

You are right about Pope, of all the players I have seen over last few years in CC he is the stand out player, but 5 the absolute lowest he should bat.

Root, 4, Stokes 5, Pope 6, how much better does that sound that we'vd been trying to do recently?
 
The Rat said:
Fair play mate, people will have opinions, he is a good gloveman like, but personally don't think it adds loads in England personally when Bairstow generally keeps pretty well. But its a fair enough call if you rate him.

I think might point being is that I do think those players have lost form due to being moved around a lot, you mentioned 2016 earlier, which was dead right, thats when they were probably all batting in their correct positions, feel they have all lost form trying to make up for other short falls, although its still down to them to score runs

Think everyone agrees though aye that 2 n 3 right positions, Burns has shown what we need

Even Denly 2 of his last 3 innings he ground out 50s and batted 120 balls, I'd move away from him probably in the winter, only as of age, but I can see why he is picked, he plays the ball late and he has guts, but not quite the ability to go big.

You are right about Pope, of all the players I have seen over last few years in CC he is the stand out player, but 5 the absolute lowest he should bat.

Root, 4, Stokes 5, Pope 6, how much better does that sound that we'vd been trying to do recently?
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I just feel we don't need a lower order that is all dashers. Your number 7 likely ends up facing the second new ball, so surely has to be able to play it well. Rather than just hit the way out of trouble.

Foakes in Sri Lanka looked gritty and the type of player who will succeed at test level. Even if first class record been iffy this summer.

The India tour was the start of the problems in terms of settled batting line ups Bayliss had them batting all over the place in that series.

Go back and check the scorecards. It's pretty mental and no wonder we were so bad in India.
Like the sound of that 4-6 though. So much better, feel they gave up on Pope too quickly last summer when playing him in the wrong position.

Again trying to make Buttler happen as a test player(despite him actually being good last summer)
 
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The Rat said:
Foakes is not playing well, and he is way over rated, long term in the side? possibly but he needs more runs behind him

I have nout against him butjust sick of hearing his name, its canny mad how rated he is, like the second coming

Heard this for years about Leach, must player over Ali etc, then when he comes in, he is mo more than steady.

Jennings got a 100 in Sri Lanka too, its not much of a marker for scoring runs in England

Bairstow isn't a top 5 player, he is a number 7, and again said this a million times, people try and blame the lower order when its the top 5 that are the issue.


We have lost our 2nd home series (well we haven't lost actually) in 7 years, no need to change the whole side
They have 100% done the right thing keeping the squad, Roy has been shafted by Ed Smith and probs can't recover, but you give him another game in the middle order, we shouldn't panic, we have missed our best bowler, and Smith and a world class bowling unit have won it.

I'd appoint a new selector, new coach, then lets see how we want to play first and have a clear plan, not just pick names from a list of averages and say pick him, him, him


I do talk a lot of shite, but I have always been very consistent over the last 3 or 4 years about how I see England

The strength is our lower order, Root has to play 4, then You have Stokes at 6, Bairstow at 7, Ali (if he is in form, he was rightly dropped for a break) at 8.

I think Buttler won't score enough runs as a batsman, but he should be in and around the squad.

Teh issues are simpe, find a top 3 who can bat time, and set the game up for the middle order from Root downwards who can play their natural way, don't shoe horn players out of position, look at whats happened to Root

We have found one in Burns who has done OK, Denly shows he can bat time, but needs replacing long term

Then we could maybe move Stokes to 5 and try someone like Pope at 6 before slowly moving him up the order
Sorry for the rambling length of the post
England lost their way over last 18 months under Ed Smith when Root was moved to 3, we had Stokes at 3 one time, Ali at 3 and 5, Bairstow at 3,4,5

Yet these are the ones who get criticised, leave them in their best positions and then lets find some top order players, we found Burns, why can't we find some more?


Yeah he has been just about the best run scorer when fit in CC for as long as I can remember, just a run getter, surprised never even been talked about.

Our top 3 needs to be picked on charachter and players who can churn it out, our 4 to 7 will score runs if that happens, and we have the freedom of the best young talent like Pope at 6

Its a shame Roy never got the chance to have a series at 6, cant believe Ed Smith and James Taylor, they let him down
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Roy was totally shafted telling him to open on his debut in the ashes when he has never even opened for his county!

Now you have the world and his dog having a go at him, putting him under further pressure and further denting his confidence and he has only played 4 tests!

He came out of the World Cup full of confidence should have been put in the middle order, that was the worst decision of the whole summer for me.
 
Really easy all this hindsight 20:20 vision saying Roy has been shafted and him opening was the worst decision of the summer. The fact is we were short of an opener and he was off the back of an excellent WC where he was one of our most important players. Every man and his dog were calling for him to open, if he hadn’t Bayliss and the selectors would have been lambasted and rightly so. Our middle to lower order is totally congested which is why there is endless debate about who from Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler, Ali, Foakes, Woakes and Curran should go in there and where to bat them. Trying to fit a World Cup winning opener in there when we were crying out for someone to go at the top of the order was always a complete non starter.

It’s a crying shame it hasn’t worked out for us and Roy, if he’d come off once or twice or even three times, we could quite easily be 4-0 up in this series. If Jimmy hadn’t gone down in the first Test, if we’d taken our chances at key moments, it all could have been so different. All ifs and buts maybe. But the main factor for me that has stopped him from succeeding is that he hasn’t learnt, from the first Test to now, he’s shown the same flaws and clearly hasn’t worked on them. Burns has done the total opposite and looks to have cemented his place, for now at least. Whether that’s arrogance or inability to correct weakness on Roy’s part I’ve no idea, but he’s really only got himself to blame. No point blaming selectors when the decision everyone was calling for hasn’t worked.
 
brandon said:
The definition of insanity.

Fuck them, the biggest game in London this week is taking place at Lords.
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Is there a women’s international there or something!
Salem Street South said:
Really easy all this hindsight 20:20 vision saying Roy has been shafted and him opening was the worst decision of the summer. The fact is we were short of an opener and he was off the back of an excellent WC where he was one of our most important players. Every man and his dog were calling for him to open, if he hadn’t Bayliss and the selectors would have been lambasted and rightly so. Our middle to lower order is totally congested which is why there is endless debate about who from Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler, Ali, Foakes, Woakes and Curran should go in there and where to bat them. Trying to fit a World Cup winning opener in there when we were crying out for someone to go at the top of the order was always a complete non starter.

It’s a crying shame it hasn’t worked out for us and Roy, if he’d come off once or twice or even three times, we could quite easily be 4-0 up in this series. If Jimmy hadn’t gone down in the first Test, if we’d taken our chances at key moments, it all could have been so different. All ifs and buts maybe. But the main factor for me that has stopped him from succeeding is that he hasn’t learnt, from the first Test to now, he’s shown the same flaws and clearly hasn’t worked on them. Burns has done the total opposite and looks to have cemented his place, for now at least. Whether that’s arrogance or inability to correct weakness on Roy’s part I’ve no idea, but he’s really only got himself to blame. No point blaming selectors when the decision everyone was calling for hasn’t worked.
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It’s not hindsight at all there were a few of us on here at the time before Roy played at test match saying it was ludicrous for him to open, when to my knowledge he had never opened for his county.

Roy is clearly a middle order batsman who would have come out of the World Cup full of confidence only for it to be destroyed by throwing him into the lions den on debut!

Now his confidence looks shot and people lining up to critise him, he has been shafted imo,
 
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I was hoping to see Olly Pope in there but I think the selection is more a reflection on the fact that there has only been one round of 4 day games in the last 9 weeks or so. Nobody has played enough red ball cricket to be in any sort of current form.
 
We could have possibly had a middle order batsman who could have taken the game away from the opposition with the shine of the ball, now because of the mistake of opening with him, people are already taking about his test career been over after 4 tests, with only 1 in his proper position!
 
So Stokes may play as a batsman only which means they will being in Curran. So who drops out? They really going to make the tail longer?
Maybe put Stokes in a 3 and move everyone down. Drop Bairstow and give Buttler the gloves

Burns, Denly, Stokes, Root, Roy, Buttler, Woakes, Curran, Archer, Leach, Broad
 
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TopCat said:
So Stokes may play as a batsman only which means they will being in Curran. So who drops out? They really going to make the tail longer?
Maybe put Stokes in a 3 and move everyone down. Drop Bairstow and give Buttler the gloves

Burns, Denly, Stokes, Root, Roy, Buttler, Woakes, Curran, Archer, Leach, Broad
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I think that will be the team. i have said before I don't really fancy Curran on flat pitches and the Oval usually is. Be interesting to see how he goes.
 
Voice of fair play said:
We could have possibly had a middle order batsman who could have taken the game away from the opposition with the shine of the ball, now because of the mistake of opening with him, people are already taking about his test career been over after 4 tests, with only 1 in his proper position!
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we arent looking for middle order batsmen though, we have good batsmen from 3 to 7 (although buttler is on shakey ground.) We need openers.
 
rentaghost said:
I think that will be the team. i have said before I don't really fancy Curran on flat pitches and the Oval usually is. Be interesting to see how he goes.
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I can't see Curran having a future as a bowler unless he finds 5 Mph from somewhere. Swing or not, 79 Mph isn't going to trouble anyone.
 
Far Tibetan Mountain said:
we arent looking for middle order batsmen though, we have good batsmen from 3 to 7 (although buttler is on shakey ground.) We need openers.
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We do need openers could not agree more, but opening with a man both on his debut and who has never opened before in the longer format is just not the way to go surely?

People like Denky and Root clearly have a better technique and patience than Roy, simply could not understand the logic and was constantly saying that before the test series and I am a big fan of Roy!
 
Voice of fair play said:
Is there a women’s international there or something!


It’s not hindsight at all there were a few of us on here at the time before Roy played at test match saying it was ludicrous for him to open, when to my knowledge he had never opened for his county.

Roy is clearly a middle order batsman who would have come out of the World Cup full of confidence only for it to be destroyed by throwing him into the lions den on debut!

Now his confidence looks shot and people lining up to critise him, he has been shafted imo,
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It is hindsight, no one could have foreseen how he would go, just so happens you were right and he couldn’t make the step up but there was every reason to think he could have made the transition from one day to Test and if things had gone slightly different he may have done, but he didn’t mainly due to him not wanting to or able to learn on the job, be that arrogance or lack of ability, whatever not cos he’s been shafted by Ed Smith.

The fact is we weren’t looking for a middle order batsman, we needed an opener and he was the only logical and obvious choice. Saying he’s been shafted etc is revisionist nonsense. He was given a great chance and couldn’t take it, unfortunately. I think we’ve got much better options in the middle order anyway and I’m a big fan of his as well.
 
Voice of fair play said:
We could have possibly had a middle order batsman who could have taken the game away from the opposition with the shine of the ball, now because of the mistake of opening with him, people are already taking about his test career been over after 4 tests, with only 1 in his proper position!
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Spot on, I feel for the lad

He could have been a star who knows, we will never know

Probs be his last test

Even at Old Trafford he looked million times better even with low confidence.

He has averaged 43 last 3 years (I think its 3) and thats not bad.


I guess teh issue with Roy is did we need another player like that in the middle order, probably not, I've always thought Ballance would score runs at 5 for England, like Colly did, but never seemed to get picked there
 
TopCat said:
I can't see Curran having a future as a bowler unless he finds 5 Mph from somewhere. Swing or not, 79 Mph isn't going to trouble anyone.
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Yes but he won player of the series last year against India who were the World No 1 Team. He has never let England down and in my opinion should play.
 
Voice of fair play said:
We do need openers could not agree more, but opening with a man both on his debut and who has never opened before in the longer format is just not the way to go surely?

People like Denky and Root clearly have a better technique and patience than Roy, simply could not understand the logic and was constantly saying that before the test series and I am a big fan of Roy!
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Its because there wasn't a clear answer. My guess is that if we had taken your choice of Root opening he would have performed similarly or worse to how he did at 3 with 3 ducks being exposed to the new ball. We will of course never know.
 

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