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jackynutmeg
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Creatine isn't going to have any effect on your ability to get a woman pregnant, apart from maybe some strength enduced benefits
But the fact that he is an ugly bastard will
SargentQ
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http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/creatine-000297.htm
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzGJnbBay90[/ame]
http://www.livestrong.com/high-creatinine-levels/
not stating you take a tub of creatine you will have kidney damage, just highlighting with credible sources that it does harm your body. Should be enough academic literature there to get your teeth into titus
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Can you direct me to the specific research that demonstrates kidney damage? The second link all I can see is talking about creatinine levels, this is often misinterpreted as kidney failure, when it is just a marker. Similar to certain elevated enzymes associated with high protein intake.
This was discussed in the Layne Norton link posted:
"Another one that comes to mind is people who say “protein and creatine are hard on the kidneys.” This is complete rubbish. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence that suggest creatine or protein negatively affects a healthy kidney. In fact, there is some research that suggests consuming a low protein diet may accelerate kidney failure in people who have kidney problems. While consuming more protein and creatine may elevate levels of creatinine and BUN many health professionals mistake these elevated levels as being diagnostic for kidney failure. The reality is you can have elevated creatinine and BUN and still have a healthy kidney, but if you have kidney problems those will definitely be elevated. They are indicators… not diagnostic measures."
This was discussed in the Layne Norton link posted:
"Another one that comes to mind is people who say “protein and creatine are hard on the kidneys.” This is complete rubbish. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence that suggest creatine or protein negatively affects a healthy kidney. In fact, there is some research that suggests consuming a low protein diet may accelerate kidney failure in people who have kidney problems. While consuming more protein and creatine may elevate levels of creatinine and BUN many health professionals mistake these elevated levels as being diagnostic for kidney failure. The reality is you can have elevated creatinine and BUN and still have a healthy kidney, but if you have kidney problems those will definitely be elevated. They are indicators… not diagnostic measures."
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SargentQ
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do you have a Taylor and Francis Journal account?
and also how are you disregarding an article from maryland university that highlights my point
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I'm not sure, do they do institutional access? If you can provide the specific titles I should be able to get hold of them.
SargentQ
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yes to a certain degree, only certain lecturers have access to it if your in the sports faculty as the membership costs.
also answer my other point : why you disregarding a well known university's prospective on it?
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I'll see if any of my lecturers have access. Any specific titles though, may be able to access them through other sources.
I didn't see your edit, that's why. Link me to what the uni said.
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SargentQ
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i have linked you on the other post but you chose to ignore it
so let me get this straight your saying excessive creatine use does not harm a individuals kidneys?
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You claimed "Constant creatine use can cause kidney failure" and I ask you to do as I did and substantiate your claim with scientific research. You are seemingly attacking a straw man as I never said "excessive creatine use would not be harmful". Enlighten us with the scientific research to substantiate your claims as a lot of industry experts would like to see it.
From the video that you tried to use to substantiate your position - "It is naturally made in our bodies anyway, so as far as side effects go, our body is used to dealing with creatine every day of our lives...So it's not going to cause any adverse side effects."
From the video that you tried to use to substantiate your position - "It is naturally made in our bodies anyway, so as far as side effects go, our body is used to dealing with creatine every day of our lives...So it's not going to cause any adverse side effects."
SargentQ
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you should be in politics, you pick and choose your arguments yet disregard key facts, yet again you have decided to disregard the university document that I put on here.You harp on about me giving you titles but if you new academic journal sites such as Taylor and Francis you would know that its copywrited to them as a provided hence having to have a 200 odd quid membership.If only it was as easy as google searching a title i would have a first in my degree
.I cant believe from a poster that seems so ''clued up'' about sport science you do not think excessive use of creatine been filled through the kidneys does not cause damage.
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I think it's evident to everybody that you're avoiding posting any scientific evidence to substantiate your claim. Infact, you even posted a video that refutes your claim and tried to use that against me.
It's easy to say "I can't believe you don't think it causes kidney damage" and throw some embarrassed faces at the end, but I'm sure people like Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald and co. would be interested in seeing something to substantiate the claim.
You seem to of been having pops of me in many threads here and there since the thread where you claimed that you could only digest 30g of protein per meal and that any more was a waste.
You have said that there are loads of examples of creatine causing kidney failure/damage, if that is the case, enlighten not only me and the members of this board, but the industry experts that would love to see this.
EDIT: Infact, you didn't even say "I can't believe you don't believe creatine causes kidney damage" and put smileys at the end, you infact continued with your strawman argument of "I can't believe that you do not think excessive use of creatine does not cause damage", which is not a claim that I have made.
It's easy to say "I can't believe you don't think it causes kidney damage" and throw some embarrassed faces at the end, but I'm sure people like Layne Norton, Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald and co. would be interested in seeing something to substantiate the claim.
You seem to of been having pops of me in many threads here and there since the thread where you claimed that you could only digest 30g of protein per meal and that any more was a waste.
You have said that there are loads of examples of creatine causing kidney failure/damage, if that is the case, enlighten not only me and the members of this board, but the industry experts that would love to see this.
EDIT: Infact, you didn't even say "I can't believe you don't believe creatine causes kidney damage" and put smileys at the end, you infact continued with your strawman argument of "I can't believe that you do not think excessive use of creatine does not cause damage", which is not a claim that I have made.
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SargentQ
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titus have you been through the university educational system and had to cite journals? Anyone that has will know you cant get journals that are published by online publishers unless you pay for the membership.Regarding the second paragraph , how can you get any more scientific than a recognised sport science university presenting an online article on the matter. I probably arent the only one on here who thinks you have a sense of arrogance in your posts just cause you may have extensive knowledge in sport science, however, when challenged you dont seem to like it.
its a forum, people are entitled to their opinions. commenting on your edit we seem to go round in circles here so a categoric yes or no
does excessive creatine use contribute or cause kidney damage?
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Regarding the second paragraph , how can you get any more scientific than a recognised sport science university presenting an online article on the matter. I probably arent the only one on here who thinks you have a sense of arrogance in your posts just cause you may have extensive knowledge in sport science, however, when challenged you dont seem to like it.
commenting on your edit we seem to go round in circles here so a categoric yes or no
does excessive creatine use contribute or cause kidney damage?
Yes and since there is apparently some extensive hidden literature. If you can provide the titles, I will see if it is possible to access them through my institute.
You're looking for a yes or no on a question that isn't relevent to the argument. Your claim, "Creatine use can cause kidney failure", if you can substantiate that with scientific literature, (apparently there are countless cases of kidney damage from creatine use...). I haven't claimed that 'excessive use of creatine' isn't detrimental to health, but doses that far exceed what is shown to be effective for performance have been shown to be safe.
Can I ask why you tried to disprove yourself with the video you posted btw? I found that quite puzzling.
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SargentQ
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no excessive use, ie if you continue tub after tube, your meant to have 2 months on and then a 1-2 months rest period.
regarding this whole literature a simple search brought up this:
MedlinePlus says kidney problems that are associated with high creatinine levels include acute tubular necrosis, diabetic nephropathy, glomerulonephritis or pyelonephritis, all of which can lead to chronic kidney disease (CKD) or kidney failure. CKD and kidney failure can result in seizures, coma and, ultimately, death. Individuals with either condition may need dialysis, a regular treatment that cleans the blood, or a kidney transplant.
The University of Maryland Medical Center says the risk of kidney damage is greater when high doses of creatine supplements are taken. The Mayo Clinic does not advise taking more creatine than is recommended by manufacturers. A normal loading dose for an athlete prior to an athletic event is 5g, four times a day for a week. A maintenance dose for athletes is 2 to 5g per day.
post 19#
pay particular attention to the word excessive
definition:
ex·ces·sive
Adjective:
More than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate
you keep harping on about this video, yet why not comment on the university document i have brought to your attention....''puzzling''
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I'm aware what the word excessive means, which was not your initial claim, you stated simply "the use of creatine".
"Medline says" *sigh*, post a relevent peer-reviewed study where it has been shown that creatine supplementation causes kidney failure. In regards to that university document, they say that creatine use is largely considered safe. They reference a study in regards to kidney damage, I had a look and this is from that study:
"We describe a college football player and weight-lifter who unexpectedly developed rhabdomyolysis and nonoliguric acute renal failure (ARF) following arthroscopic knee surgery. There was swelling and pain without evidence of a compartment syndrome postoperatively. The patient reported that he was an avid weight-lifter and that he was taking up to 10 g/d of a creatine supplement during the 6 weeks prior to this surgery."
Judging by the amount of research that suggests that creatine supplementation is perfectly safe, I'd suspect that it is simply correlation that the patient was supplementing with creatine.
Can you now explain why you posted a video that goes against your claim? Did you not expect me to watch the video? Or did you not watch it yourself and just quickly Youtube search "Creatine Side Effects" or something into Youtube and grab a video without watching it? I seem to remember that you gave it the whole "
" in the thread regarding the 30g of protein digestion also after I posted a Youtube video about the ileal break iirc.
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SargentQ
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this is becoming way out of context and looks like your trying to continue a debate which wont come to a conclusion, I have clearly highlighted, even quoted myself saying excessive use.If you continue to ignore that then fair enough, just dont get all defensive when someone challenges your arguments.
Thought it was laughable how you assumed I was continually focusing on your comments , but surely as you contribute most to this forum ( with right or wrong suggestions may i point out) then that gives me, and anyone else for that matter a large target to debate with
PUZZLED
SargentQ
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Can you now explain why you posted a video that goes against your claim? Did you not expect me to watch the video? Or did you not watch it yourself and just quickly Youtube search "Creatine Side Effects" or something into Youtube and grab a video without watching it? I seem to remember that you gave it the whole "
your still going on about that thread. So in the world of Titus your advice would be simply take as much creatine and protein as you can to achieve muscle gain, it wont harm your health and certainly wont go to waste , I hope for your sake and whoever paid for your tuition fees you are heading into a career of sport nutrition, well, not for SAFC anyways
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this is becoming way out of context and looks like your trying to continue a debate which wont come to a conclusion, I have clearly highlighted, even quoted myself saying excessive use.If you continue to ignore that then fair enough, just dont get all defensive when someone challenges your arguments.
Thought it was laughable how you assumed I was continually focusing on your comments , but surely as you contribute most to this forum ( with right or wrong suggestions may i point out) then that gives me, and anyone else for that matter a large target to debate with
PUZZLED
Post 17 - " titus has strangely missed is that constant use of creatine can result in kidney failure."
I responded to this asking for research and in post 19 - "there is countless reviews that state excessive creatine use had caused what they first thought were kidney cramps"
That is what I have been debating, that creatine supplementation is perfectly fine based on the current scientific literature that is available. Even from Wikipedia -
"Although studies have shown little or no adverse impact on kidney or liver function from oral creatine supplementation.[16] In 2004 the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) published a record which stated that oral long-term intake of 3g pure creatine per day is risk-free.[17] The reports of damage to the kidneys by creatine supplementation have been scientifically refuted.[18][19]"
I'm happy to debate topics with people on the board, but some of your comments towards me in other threads just seem like petty, sarcastic jabs and even another member of the board said to me the other day "SargentQ seems to hate you like".
You certainly love a strawman.
"The body can digest more than 30g of protein per sitting & creatine supplementation is safe based on the current research"
"Titus thinks you can eat as much protein as you want and supplement with as much creatine as you can and it won't harm your health *insert smileys*" Ha'way...
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