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VARguments


If technology can keep 10,000 planes in the sky 24 hours a day and 7 days a week, something should be able to be created that spots if a player is offside in football.
incidentally - 88% of plane accidents are due to 'human error'.

Tech keeps us safe 99.999984% of the time and it's mainly humans who f*ck with those stats.

My conclusion: VAR is pretty rubbish and there's too much human involvement in it and AI should have a bigger role to play.

FAIR - Football Artificial Intelligence Referee
 
along with the crap kick off times, VAR is the main reason i'm not as enthralled about getting promoted as i used to be

i'll enjoy the journey, but the destination really isn't filling me with excitement

every single week, without fail, theres some VAR controversy. and lots of big threads about it on here. and we haven't even been involved in it yet. its going to utterly dominate all the post-match talk every single week.
 
Pandora's box has been opened, and now there appears to be no closing it.

A complete shit show all round. Who'd have thought?
 
Any updates on the 'daylight' trials in Italy and Sweden. Can't find any info. Seems absolutely bonkers idea to me and can't believe it's garnered so much support.
 
I keep referring back to cricket.
For lbw they have a static camera, known distance from the point of release, known height of the stumps.
Even with all that certainly they admit the technological limitations can't accurately recreate the live image with no reasonable doubt.


Football has cameras on pivots or people running up and down and expect to be able to guage the distance between players from a distance a minimum of twice that of a cricket pitch from a none fixed position at a random angle to the play with a frame rate that must mean there can be a margin of error in the frame that picked as "the point the ball was played forward". Still it seems to make no allowance for the fact the on field officials had a better view as they aren't working from a recorded image.

Obvious breakdown of protocol yesterday which is the main issue but on or offside I think they are trying to make the available pictures do something they aren't capable of.
If thye want this level of scrutiny there should be dedicated fixed cameras covering the whole pitch. The for TV pictures aren't good enough quality imo.
 
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AC Mack said:
Pandora's box has been opened, and now there appears to be no closing it.

A complete shit show all round. Who'd have thought?
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its not a exageration to say that every single week there is some sort of VAR controversy that dominates the likes of MOTD and BBCsport etc..

a look this morning and its the biggest story on the BBCfootball home page

off the top of my head, last week they had the man united goal/not goal where the player was offside in front of the keeper, but it was no different to the man city one a few weeks early that was allowed. there was the luton penna last week that most agreed should never have been given. the burnley/forest hand ball disallowed goal that most agreed should have been allowed and took an absolute age with the burnley away end and players celebrating like mad, newcastle hand ball at sheff utd that was blatant but not given, man united las minute winner at arsenal goal ruled out at after all the celebrations went on for ages
PrisonBroken said:
I keep referring back to cricket.
For lbw they have a static camera, know distance from the point of release, known height of the stumps.
Even with all that certainly they admit the technological limitations can't accurately recreate the live image with no reasonable doubt.


Football has cameras on pivots or people running up and down and expect to be able to guage the distance between players from a distance a minimum of twice that of a cricket pitch from a none fixed position at a random angle to the play with a frame rate that must mean there can be a margin of error in the frame that pickef as "the point the ball was played forward". Still it seems to make no allowance for the fact the on field officials had a better view as they aren't working from a recorded image.

Obvious breakdown of protocol yesterday which is the main issue but on or offside I think they are trying to make the available pictures do something they aren't capable of.
If thye want this level of scrutiny there should be dedicated fixed cameras covering the whole pitch. The for TV pictures aren't good enough quality imo.
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it always going to be flawed. if you've got somone like fellaini with a massive afro running exactly in line with baldy defender, is he offside cos his hair is ahead? what about baggy shirts, or players with extra big boots?

you can have all the technology in the world but you can never make it 100% accurate. so you might aswel just go back to the most simple, effective, quickest method which is having a linesman flag it as they see it, and thats that.
 
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tunstallhill said:
its not a exageration to say that every single week there is some sort of VAR controversy that dominates the likes of MOTD and BBCsport etc..

a look this morning and its the biggest story on the BBCfootball home page

off the top of my head, last week they had the man united goal/not goal where the player was offside in front of the keeper, but it was no different to the man city one a few weeks early that was allowed. there was the luton penna last week that most agreed should never have been given. the burnley/forest hand ball disallowed goal that most agreed should have been allowed and took an absolute age with the burnley away end and players celebrating like mad, newcastle hand ball at sheff utd that was blatant but not given, man united las minute winner at arsenal goal ruled out at after all the celebrations went on for ages


it always going to be flawed. if you've got somone like fellaini with a massive afro running exactly in line with baldy defender, is he offside cos his hair is ahead? what about baggy shirts, or players with extra big boots?

you can have all the technology in the world but you can never make it 100% accurate. so you might aswel just go back to the most simple, effective, quickest method which is having a linesman flag it as they see it, and thats that.
Click to expand...

I can't imagine a time when we won't have the post match furore around decisions. 90% of the time it's fans going mental about split borderline calls. The annoying thing with offsides is we could remove 95% of problematic calls by reducing it to foot position.
 
62cm he was onside, that's 2 foot in old money.

It's like betting on a photo finish in the horses and you have access to the photo before anyone else and one horse has won by a head and you still lose by backing second place.

The incompetence by VAR officials on this incident was absolutely staggering, I half watched the game on TV and couldn't understand why they didn't make more of it on commentary and just assumed it must have been an optical illusion that made him look so far onside.
 
In the Villa v Brighton game yesterday the Brighton goal was not disallowed despite it clearly looking like the eventual goal scorer was offside at the time of the cross. As the ‘cross’ arose from a Villa defender kicking the back of the Brighton players foot they seemed to have bottled the correct decision of No Goal, Penalty and Red card as he was in a goal scoring position.
 
riffraff said:
Refs shouldn’t be at the controls.

I read that the words good goal, no goal, offside, foul, handball etc aren’t used in the exchanges. Surely that’s not true? “Check complete” or “have a look” etc can’t be what the ref hears surely?
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"Check complete"
You must be logged on to see media items
 
Matnab said:
I can't imagine a time when we won't have the post match furore around decisions. 90% of the time it's fans going mental about split borderline calls.
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see i disagree with this. 90% of the time its not borderline decisions, its just utter stupidity, controversy, confusion and massive delays caused entirely by the VAR system itself

just go back to letting refs an linesmen manage the game in real time with no outside influence. they call it as they see it and thats that. easy
 
tunstallhill said:
its not a exageration to say that every single week there is some sort of VAR controversy that dominates the likes of MOTD and BBCsport etc..

a look this morning and its the biggest story on the BBCfootball home page

off the top of my head, last week they had the man united goal/not goal where the player was offside in front of the keeper, but it was no different to the man city one a few weeks early that was allowed. there was the luton penna last week that most agreed should never have been given. the burnley/forest hand ball disallowed goal that most agreed should have been allowed and took an absolute age with the burnley away end and players celebrating like mad, newcastle hand ball at sheff utd that was blatant but not given, man united las minute winner at arsenal goal ruled out at after all the celebrations went on for ages


it always going to be flawed. if you've got somone like fellaini with a massive afro running exactly in line with baldy defender, is he offside cos his hair is ahead? what about baggy shirts, or players with extra big boots?

you can have all the technology in the world but you can never make it 100% accurate. so you might aswel just go back to the most simple, effective, quickest method which is having a linesman flag it as they see it, and thats that.
Click to expand...
To a point I agree and officials get the vast majority of these right but if they are 2 yards on or off surely it isn't too difficult to use in those situations
 
Matnab said:
I can't imagine a time when we won't have the post match furore around decisions. 90% of the time it's fans going mental about split borderline calls. The annoying thing with offsides is we could remove 95% of problematic calls by reducing it to foot position.
Click to expand...
They wouldn’t apologise if it was borderline.

The mistakes VAR have made have not been borderline. The naked eye fair enough but every angle and every speed possible to get it wrong is madness

Unless they refuse to let their mates down and that’s the issue.

We need independent bodies on VAR not bias Refs who will side with their own happens in every profession not just football.
 
tunstallhill said:
its not a exageration to say that every single week there is some sort of VAR controversy that dominates the likes of MOTD and BBCsport etc..

a look this morning and its the biggest story on the BBCfootball home page

off the top of my head, last week they had the man united goal/not goal where the player was offside in front of the keeper, but it was no different to the man city one a few weeks early that was allowed. there was the luton penna last week that most agreed should never have been given. the burnley/forest hand ball disallowed goal that most agreed should have been allowed and took an absolute age with the burnley away end and players celebrating like mad, newcastle hand ball at sheff utd that was blatant but not given, man united las minute winner at arsenal goal ruled out at after all the celebrations went on for ages


it always going to be flawed. if you've got somone like fellaini with a massive afro running exactly in line with baldy defender, is he offside cos his hair is ahead? what about baggy shirts, or players with extra big boots?

you can have all the technology in the world but you can never make it 100% accurate. so you might aswel just go back to the most simple, effective, quickest method which is having a linesman flag it as they see it, and thats that.
Click to expand...

It just seemed so obvious that this would happen, yet the vast majority were all for it.
 
Should just have goal line technology and outside of that go back to refs allowing teams to bring subs on for men sent off and linesmen giving pennas to the likes of Gaz Mac when there's contact about ten yards outside the box.
 
This was a huge VAR howler but as always what seems to get forgotten is that it was a huge howler by the AR in the first place. Remove VAR and the goal is still incorrectly disallowed. VAR has in this case made no difference. It only makes things worse when it changes a correct decision to a wrong one. In assessing its contribution they’re the only ones that belong in the minus column.

This also feels like a human error that would have been much harder if not impossible with the semi-automatic system used at the World Cup and in UEFA competitions. Why are we still stuck with idiots drawing lines by hand?
 
tunstallhill said:
see i disagree with this. 90% of the time its not borderline decisions, its just utter stupidity, controversy, confusion and massive delays caused entirely by the VAR system itself

just go back to letting refs an linesmen manage the game in real time with no outside influence. they call it as they see it and thats that. easy
Click to expand...
Exactly and remove the moaners and appealers immediately for 10 minutes, managers included, all down the tunnel so they can’t even watch the game. Every single one who does it instantly and for longer a second time. They’ll sharp zip it and the refs job will become less pressured and we’ll have more good decisions. Any appeals can be done post game not directly to the ref so the ref can receive constructive feedback. It’s time to cut the bullshit.
 
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